Extremely Important

[Reijin]

ok, then does anyone else (MEMBERS, not staffers, we'll get our opinions out on the staff board) have any severe issues that they do not like with this proposition?

For a reminder, this is what I'm referring to:

"Let's take all the techs out there and assign a value number to them. All members who are still active by the time we do the reset will begin with a number bonus based proportionally on their activity, using the new reward system to gauge this as if it had been implemented right now. All new joinees will be devoid of this bonus and will simply build their characters from there.

We then allow these new members to buy any tech on our list that they can afford using this number bonus they recieve. They may only choose one of these techs and it will be considered an innate trait that they may include into their character's creation, such as race or history. They then lose any points that have not been spent in this manner.

They may not be able to afford the exact tech that they wish, and powerups will be exempt from this list for balance reasons, but that depends solely on their activity from the starting date forward. Everyone will have begin the game at a level that is based on their activity to this point.

Staff members will begin with a number bonus to be chosen at a later time that will allow them to remain competitive with the members for their help in bringing this project to life.

Essentially, on a list of techs, how active you are from now until the reset will determine how powerful of a tech you may choose for your one starting tech to build your character on."

[Super Buu]

Duwwaaaahhh! The last 24 minutes I've been gnawing on my leg. Just had to get that out.

This is going to piss on your fire, and don't take it badly, but my hope was to retain some past techniques - not earn new ones. This is a great suggestion for holding activity within the next four months, and I think it should stay, but I don't think it's a substitute for carrying over old work - it's an entirely new idea for a completely different issue.

So I think we should keep the 'carry over some old techniques' thing, in addition to this, if it gets used. I also think that perhaps you should remove the 'one technique only' cap. What if someone prefers two weak techs to one strong one?

[Reijin]

What you propose simply means that members can start off with a possibility of five or so techniques, a few of them fairly powerful. That's still pushing for the "I want compensation for having been a member longer" to me.

what about making the following change:

"Using the points you earn from now until then, you may start with any techs on the list (excepting powerups) that you can afford as long as their total does not surpass the reward you are given"

I'm making various proposals just to get a feel of things, and this does not necessarily mean "this is what we are doing".

As far as I'm concerned, this is currently just me throwing things out of my ass, as this may be something every single staffer other than myself is against.

I personally like it.

[Android-18]

I like it, and SB, you could possibly get one of the techs you have now.

Or Rei, we could have that and let them pick ONE old ability, but no power ups. So as to have 2 and only 2 abilities. Reward and compinsation.

[Aqua]

I've just accepted that you guys are deadset on a reset, and so, within that context, I understand whyyou wouldn't want to let people keep their techniques.

I really like this idea Rei, especially with the most recent edit (as someone might wnat a series of weaker techs rather than one stronger [as supes said]). Hell you could even have the last few sagas under this system reward points for the moves after the reset. The tokens would fit perfectly into this idea as well.

[Super Buu]

Originally posted by Reijin
What you propose simply means that members can start off with a possibility of five or so techniques, a few of them fairly powerful. That's still pushing for the "I want compensation for having been a member longer" to me.

what about making the following change:

"Using the points you earn from now until then, you may start with any techs on the list (excepting powerups) that you can afford as long as their total does not surpass the reward you are given"

I'm making various proposals just to get a feel of things, and this does not necessarily mean "this is what we are doing".

As far as I'm concerned, this is currently just me throwing things out of my ass, as this may be something every single staffer other than myself is against.

I personally like it.

Aye, but what you're proposing is not the 'Some non-powerup abilties will carry over' I was banking on. According to what you've said, it's within the new rating system, so it is effectively just doing what Aqua said and starting four months early. It's not a bonus or anything - people will be earning these rewards, then switching characters. That's all it is. And it's no reason, IMO, to just discard the old idea of being allowed to keep some old techs.

I do want to keep some of the old techs I've earned. Like you said, it's kind of saying I'm SOL for earning stuff recently.

18's suggestion is quite nice (though I would prefer two old techs instead of one. ). Like I said, this new system isn't a bonus in any way - it's just opening up the doors early to this new system. So I wouldn't really count it towards the compensatory stuff.

[Raditzu]

Here's another suggestion that was posted.

Of the techniques your canon character possesses at the time of the switch, you can keep any one of them. After choosing your one techniques, you will be given a negative amount of XP equal to the "buying" cost of that technique.

EDIT: Just saw 18's post (I was skimming). Its a similar idea, but is more even for people who can choose something like Raikinesis to start with by giving them a starting handicap.

[Broli]

Originally posted by Reijin
"Let's take all the techs out there and assign a value number to them. All members who are still active by the time we do the reset will begin with a number bonus based proportionally on their activity, using the new reward system to gauge this as if it had been implemented right now. All new joinees will be devoid of this bonus and will simply build their characters from there.

We then allow these new members to buy any tech on our list that they can afford using this number bonus they recieve. They may only choose one of these techs and it will be considered an innate trait that they may include into their character's creation, such as race or history. They then lose any points that have not been spent in this manner.

They may not be able to afford the exact tech that they wish, and powerups will be exempt from this list for balance reasons, but that depends solely on their activity from the starting date forward. Everyone will have begin the game at a level that is based on their activity to this point.

Staff members will begin with a number bonus to be chosen at a later time that will allow them to remain competitive with the members for their help in bringing this project to life.

Essentially, on a list of techs, how active you are from now until the reset will determine how powerful of a tech you may choose for your one starting tech to build your character on."

I personally like it.

I don't like it considering that after 5 years of roleplaying 90% of my rewards have been training points or zeni. Instant Transmission is the only ability I have that's not a powerup.

Just seems iffy that I'll get, say, 5 points for IT while Joe Bob gets 25 points for his 5 abilities that he earned in the last year, whereas may I remind you that it wasn't until this past year that staff began going nuts on giving out abilities.

Then again, I'm probably just the exception.

Edit: Wrong quote. Fixed.

[Vegeta]

Originally posted by Broli

Originally posted by Reijin
"Let's take all the techs out there and assign a value number to them. All members who are still active by the time we do the reset will begin with a number bonus based proportionally on their activity, using the new reward system to gauge this as if it had been implemented right now. All new joinees will be devoid of this bonus and will simply build their characters from there.

We then allow these new members to buy any tech on our list that they can afford using this number bonus they recieve. They may only choose one of these techs and it will be considered an innate trait that they may include into their character's creation, such as race or history. They then lose any points that have not been spent in this manner.

They may not be able to afford the exact tech that they wish, and powerups will be exempt from this list for balance reasons, but that depends solely on their activity from the starting date forward. Everyone will have begin the game at a level that is based on their activity to this point.

Staff members will begin with a number bonus to be chosen at a later time that will allow them to remain competitive with the members for their help in bringing this project to life.

Essentially, on a list of techs, how active you are from now until the reset will determine how powerful of a tech you may choose for your one starting tech to build your character on."

I personally like it.

I don't like it considering that after 5 years of roleplaying 90% of my rewards have been training points or zeni. Instant Transmission is the only ability I have that's not a powerup.

Just seems iffy that I'll get, say, 5 points for IT while Joe Bob gets 25 points for his 5 abilities that he earned in the last year, whereas may I remind you that it wasn't until this past year that staff began going nuts on giving out abilities.

Then again, I'm probably just the exception.

Edit: Wrong quote. Fixed.

you get "points" based on your activity not the abilities you already have.

[Reijin]

I've already said that I'm not thinking in terms of compensating people for enjoying themselves before this.

I keep seeing "But that's not fair even still. I worked HARD for my techs and should be able to keep them! I want to pick one of them even if noone else can have it b/c I earned it before they were here." Then someone else replies with "Well, that's cool, but I want TWO techs, otherwise I can't roleplay exactly the character I'm planning to do." then someone leads into "I'd like to keep all my techs b/c dammit I earned them and its complete bs to take them away from me, but I don't mind losing powerups (happens to have no high end powerups)" Then someone else goes "What the crap? I have no powerups b/c the staff only give those and techniques to people in the in crowd and all so all I have for my effort is stats which means that I want to keep some proportion of my stats!"

This is exactly why I don't care at all about compensation. It keeps looping its way around to basically saying nothing should change, over all these pages. I don't feel we should be starting everyone off on a preplanned gap.

So that means that we could simply go "Let's take all activity from the last six months forward" but then someone who roleplayed heavily a year ago and then had to leave for a deep family committment until recently would be completely screwed over. Let's use Pikkon as an example with his having left for military reasons only to return recently.

So that means that we could simply go "Let's allow people to essentially get a proportion of their current stuff when they start off" which then means that someone like Metal Koola that has been here for a long time but been very inactive will still start off ahead of people that might earn it.

Are either of them fair? No, they are unfair to someone regardless.

So I think the fairest route will be to allow them an advance opportunity to reearn these abilities, at possibly a reduced cost from what we'd ask from them if this was normal.

This would allow someone to possibly repair about 1/4 to 1/3 of their techs in a way that means that new characters and old characters will be happy, but they'll still lose out on the total amount of techs by not just starting off at the top.

Let's say your refund rewarded you 65 points.

You originally had:

Telekinesis: (we valued at 12 points)
Pyrokinesis: (we valued at 37 points)
Super Saiyan: (We gave it a nil value)
Super Saiyan 2: (We gave it a nil value)
Metal Binding: (We valued at 35)
Teleportation: (We valued at 44)
Venemous Ki: (We valued at 28 )
Oosaru: (We gave it a nil value)
Dark Ki: (We valued at 28 )

Now, using your 65 rewarded points, you decided to start off with Pyrokinesis and Venemous Ki totalling up to 65 if my math is correct. You then choose to be an Android, inherently giving you Dark Ki for free.

You start off as a fairly powerful character for even a reset, and yet you are not overpowered at all.

[Broli]

So there's still a reason to try and roleplay for abilities, such as under one of the Sensei's at Kajin Rala?

[Super Buu]

For the record, I disagree with:

So I think the fairest route will be to allow them an advance opportunity to reearn these abilities, at possibly a reduced cost from what we'd ask from them if this was normal.

That just seems to be encouraging sandbag activity for the next 4 months. Stick with the system you'll be using, without bonuses. I don't want to see people starting off with a technique if they don't deserve one.

Anyway, if what you're saying is true, Reijin, we're back to Page 8 where people were going "phew, we get to keep our abilities".

Let's break it down. What I'm suggesting is for people to be able to choose some number (could be one, could be four) of their old techniques to keep. From what I can see, the main reason for removing them is balance - to keep things fair and not have people 'ahead of the pack' ahead of time. So let's choose a small number of techniques to keep. Something which, as you said, isn't horribly unbalancing.

I would be crazy surprised if someone roleplayed enough to earn two very rare techniques in the upcoming months. Unless the new system is cheapening techniques, which I hope it isn't (I'm hoping it just increases TP rewards, since those are nothing compared to weekly TP in the current system).

[Grandpa Gohan]

<plays other side of coin>

I mean this kinda as a real suggestion, but at the same time, I'm playing devils advocate.

First off let me state that I believe that most people come to chubbs for a deverse community, and to have an outlet on writing. Where as the game comes second.

The easiest, and by far quickest way to solve your "fairness" problem, is probably the simplist. be a cold hearted bastard and say "Everyone gets a static refund, nothing else". This of course takes into concideration people who would want to carry on(for a short time anyway) as canon characters.

No, in terms of total time, I haven't been on chubbs a whole lot. No I dont have wtf shit to my name like Rei/Rad. No, a complete reset wouldn't throw me back too far, since I've only just begun again. So I would be one of the people least affected by the "complete wipe". Still, doesn't mean other people who've been here longer, wouldn't agree with it. That includes Rad and Rei who are giving up YEARS over work to better the site.

</end other side of coin>

For the record: I like how Rei has handled this, also, I like auqa's idea. Note: That doesnt mean I think we should use it(or shouldnt for that matter), but its a good idea nontheless. As of right now, nothing is concrete anyhow.

My 2 Yen.

[Raditzu]

Originally posted by Super Buu
For the record, I disagree with:

So I think the fairest route will be to allow them an advance opportunity to reearn these abilities, at possibly a reduced cost from what we'd ask from them if this was normal.

That just seems to be encouraging sandbag activity for the next 4 months. Stick with the system you'll be using, without bonuses. I don't want to see people starting off with a technique if they don't deserve one.

Anyway, if what you're saying is true, Reijin, we're back to Page 8 where people were going "phew, we get to keep our abilities".

Let's break it down. What I'm suggesting is for people to be able to choose some number (could be one, could be four) of their old techniques to keep. From what I can see, the main reason for removing them is balance - to keep things fair and not have people 'ahead of the pack' ahead of time. So let's choose a small number of techniques to keep. Something which, as you said, isn't horribly unbalancing.

I would be crazy surprised if someone roleplayed enough to earn two very rare techniques in the upcoming months. Unless the new system is cheapening techniques, which I hope it isn't (I'm hoping it just increases TP rewards, since those are nothing compared to weekly TP in the current system).

One of the things Reijin is addressing is the "there's no point in RPing now" complaint, which your proposition does not address at all.

No, its not really fair for those of us who have a million techs, but you don't see me complaining.

[Super Buu]

I agree with Reijin's proposition, and think it (or something close) should be used. It gets rid of the 'what now for the next four months' issue rather well.

This is something completely separate. I'm talking about keeping old techniques.

[Raditzu]

Oh. You want both.

[Super Buu]

Originally posted by Raditzu
Oh. You want both.

Right. But I don't see how being able to earn new techniques should have any effect on being able to keep old ones.

[Reijin]

Ok, SB, that means that let's say people can choose three techs to start with.
(done for example)
I'd like to inform everyone that I'm hereby starting my next character with the following: Zenkai Bonus (to ensure that I have an advantage to grow faster, and since I have this I hope I get my DA REWARD with it), Pyrokinesis, and Teleportation. Sucks that I'm losing Healing or SSJ2.

It also sucks that by recieving SSJ2 during one of the sagas as something I busted my ass for is completely thrown out because someone else doing the same work took IT and gets to keep it after this is changed over since mine is a powerup.

It also sucks to be Broli. He'll be starting with IT after all these years of being here, I'm afraid, simply b/c his roleplaying was done before we apparently changed our pace at techs. Oh, and sucks to be Goten who only has the option to start off with Ki Sense 2 and Metal Binding after his numerous years of being here. Let's not forget Garlic Jr who will get Ki Sense 1 as his only option of three techs or Bardock with Ki Sense 1. Maybe even Hell Fighter 17 who will start with Ki Sense 3 or Pigero getting nothing or Krillin getting a choice of a few minor techs compared to what Burter can get. Alex has been around for years, but he'd get stuck with nothing since he's had a few life problems that made him have to leave the site then return.
(ending of example)

There's no perfect way. I'm trying to go for what I feel is the most fair to give everyone a chance to start off without another premade huge gap.

[Vegeta]

The most fair is for everyone to start at ZERO. You get an advantage by being here at the start.

I think it's silly to argue for keeping techniques when you have no idea what is being done with them. Please just keep it til we release more details.

Seriously, we're hearing the complaint, getting some suggestions, we'll work on it.

[Reijin]

It wasn't until recently that we started allowing normal members choose what techs that they got. Staff has almost always had some say in it, while members got whatever we damn well felt like until recently. Others were heavy roleplayers until this recent time, when we suddenly began splooging techs all over.

There's a million things that make any possible solution unfair. Someone might have put all their effort into powerups and not normal moves. Someone might have roleplayed for items rather than abilities. The only possible fair way is to throw it out, but give them an advance warning that by simply continuing to roleplay as normal you can decrease the losses you will take when this reset hits, although you still will feel some losses.

AKA the "Show us how badly you are willing to bust your ass to keep your losses minimal" and prove how important it is to you method.