The Like/Hate Thread

[Kayne]

It's equally foolish to assume that people used "I only want to make quality posts" as an excuse because they wanted to go play whatever new video game had come out instead of write.

There's all kinds of excuses, but, again, just theorizing from what I have seen over the years, both directly and insinuated, this RPG once valued quality writing. What I mean by 'quality' is something that somebody put some actual thought into, minimal typos, not something like this:

Gokon was flying to school on the flying nimbus passed down to him he was scared ms.mccaig was going to kill him for being late and then he heard the bell ring at that point gokon powered up and rushed to class Ms.mccaig had been teaching multiplication when gokon rushed in he was wearing the regular green pants and white shirt with suspenders he rushed to the his seat but was grabbed by ms.mccaig tail first and was given an assignment to write i will not be late x1000 since he has been late many times

It doesn't have to be mind blowing, or of epic proportions, but something that the author has obviously put some effort into making into a finished piece. And you're absolutely right. Everybody here could have (and has) gone off to do other things, but instead, invested copious amounts of time into this place. Simply put, I think that smaller rewards should be given for minimal effort such as the example I put, and larger rewards for those who have obviously put some effort into creating something more refined.

Just for point of clarification, I wasn't saying that what we have here is balanced. I was actually saying that it, specifically, is not. Also saying it never will be.

I know, I just wanted to conversate about that.

Always consider that you have to have people actually doing manual updates. If a player is RPing to get the XP for a new move and, to them, it's important to what they do next with their character, they have to wait for someone to grade/reward/whatever their work, then they have to wait for someone to add/grade/whatever their new move is, and then... you see what I'm getting at.

Yeah, I see. But it did work at one point, and as far as I know, I do not know if there is any other solution that works with what we have. So, manual updates are in until we can find something else.

Also, I strongly advise against thinking you should ever grade on "effort." One of the reasons that we decided to use word count for XP is that we avoid having to reward someone for being a better writer than someone else. Or, conversely, we punish someone for not being as good a writer as someone else. It's incredibly demoralizing to see someone who made the exact same length post as you get rewarded more for what they did. You also can't determine how much effort someone put into something. Even if you don't think the quality is very high, it could taken them twice as long to write it as something you consider very good.

The above roleplay sample is a good example of why I think effort should be a consideration when rewarding someone for their writing. My above definition of 'quality' is what I think should be a primary factor in determining what kind of reward should be given. It isn't about whether I think someone who is obviously trying, but not quite as good as others should be given less reward, it's about those who are capable of spending a few extra minutes reading over their stuff and proofreading, doing things like separating paragraphs, for instance, capitalizing pronouns, putting voiced sections in quotes, that sort of thing. If someone is developing and refining themselves as they write and putting in their best, but not quite up to what most of our veterans are used to, then they can expect the higher reward. If someone just doesn't even try to check their posts and the issues are glaring, then they can expect the lower one. I think it should be more motivating to spend that extra few minutes to get what they can ironed out and get that higher reward. The concept of staggered rewards is not intended to reward people less for not producing stuff like, say, Ander's or Sage's caliber of writing, but for putting effort into their writing and show some effort in improving themselves.

Developing strong writing skills is something that we've done for years, whether we've realized it or not, we've all become better writers, both of fiction and in general, and I think part of that has to do with what we do here. We are essentially practicing, and improving upon our style, in an enjoyable, creative way.

Then what should it be about? Here's the problem with a site like this. If Joe is simply a better writer than Bob, by an agreeably sizable margin, then Bob has no reason to ever try to compete against Joe. He will always lose.

For the enjoyment of writing? To write with others? If you take away the stats, what really makes us much different than any other fanfiction site? I think we are essentially that, a fanfiction site that just so happens to build off an evolving primary framework and have a common theme. Isn't there some sort of competition when it comes to being a preferred writer over someone else? For instance, I have a pool of writers that I read pretty much every time they put something up, with one that I follow very closely, along with a few others that I also greatly enjoy, because I love their style, and the stories they weave. I've probably read nearly everybody whose played on this site's stuff at one point or another, but do I go out of my way to read what they post every time like I do Greg (when he writes) or Ander's (when he was around)? No, not really. Some more often than others, and some only just a few posts. To me, it makes me feel good that someone enjoys what I write, and if I can get someone to enjoy my stuff, and read it more often, then that's competition enough for me. It's a competition for fans. Is that not motivating?

I think that the stats competition is just too limiting. It might have a place somewhere in this game, but I do not think it should be the primary determinate of how 'powerful' someone is.

You can call it "levels" or "CA" or "Ki" or just "awesome points" but if you have people working to reach a goal, then whoever reaches it first or more often is winning. It doesn't have to be through a number, either, it can be abstracted through number of abilities or amount of zeni or types of items, but the competitive aspect of it will always be there. The only solutions, really, are to remove stats in-and-of themselves, or have them set so that, once created, they never change.

Isn't that essentially what is going on now? We have static stats with the strength, focus, agility, and endurance stuff. The only way those change is with the inner strength ability. Those stats, in their current (and probably only) form, will not change. They'll be reinterpreted into another representation, but that's pretty much just from a graphical representation standpoint.

So, for this particular example, its the difference between this:



and this:



A good portion of what I have in mind is aesthetics and trying to make it more visually appealing. The bottom picture is sort of thrown together, but it gives you an idea of what I mean.

I was voicing before that I would like to just not have stats at all, but if you (and everyone else) would prefer to just keep everything as is, then fine. But I think the least that could be done is a little tweaking and some aesthetic work, like what I just posted for the stats. I am confident we can find a mod out there somewhere that, if it doesn't do something like this, can be also tweaked to do so. If I have to, i just alter it myself in photoshop, or anyone who has the capabilities to do so can do it themselves if they want.

I am not wanting to come into this and just wipe everything that's been put in so far (that would be kind of insulting, I think) and put into place something entirely new, but I do not at all think it would be a bad idea to just fix what we have and perhaps find new ways to represent the things we already have. I know this response kind of veered off a little, sorry about that.

Ok, so, this next part I typed, then deleted, then retyped. I know it's probably going to be irritating or... I dunno. It'll sound bad. All I can say is that I'm trying to be straight-forward, not insulting. So... yeah...

It sounds like what you and Greg want (and it could be a ton of people, you two are just the only ones who've said anything) is a system where you can put it down for a while, then come back every now and again and still be on-par with the people who never stopped. The system that is here right now was specifically designed to avoid that. I think that's horribly unfair to the people who continue playing. That said, it probably could have been mitigated more than it was, but live 'n' learn.

While I appreciate the desire to maintain an level playing field, I can't caution you enough against diminishing people's efforts.

I didn't have much intention of coming in and ripping out the system that's already here, just tweaking it. Adding shit, like the quests, perhaps do more with the gear thing that is severely underused. One thing that I haven't talked about is a better acquisition of zeni/credits, which I hope the quests would remedy (that would sort of resemble what we had before...way before, remember all that with the TP system and stuff? that was awesome). It was a fluttering thought, but it sounds like you would be adamantly against taking out the system we have now. That's perfectly fine. You guys spent a lot of time on it, and it'd be insulting if I just came in and took it out and replaced it with something else entirely. It would also be stupid and probably alienate what little people we have left.

Just for the record, whatever changes are proposed, I do not have any intentions of making anyone start over. The multiple character thing can stay, I rather dig that, and was very much for it even when we didn't offer that particular feature. It gives variety when you're just not feeling that particular character, and you can return to it without penalty. Also, the storylines we have going on now, even the ones that haven't been played for a while, and those that have already wrapped up, are just fine how they are. What has been created over the years is great for building on the worlds we've already made and shouldn't be too terribly affected with the changes I would like to make (IE the NPCs, quests, things like that)

I also am curious, why don't you make a new RPG? It sounds like there's enough that you want to change (both mechanically and canonically) that you'd be best served just starting with a blank slate. One of the things that we wanted to do was turn Chubbs into a hub of (apparently failed) RPGs to keep the community, but appeal to people in ways that the current stuff didn't. If you have ideas you want to pursue, that's the course of action I'm inclined to encourage.

The hub thing was probably not a good idea, in retrospect. At least, not the way it was executed. Spinning them off onto their own separate subdomains and boards would have been a better move, I think. I am not sure how they would have fared as far as garnering players, that's a different issue altogether. Having staff that is dedicated to those particular games who focused on the players, however few that were there, would have created less confusion and better management. That's just my thoughts, don't take it as bible truth or anything like that.

I've thought about just doing my own RPG. I've even made a board for it, but I start, and it's like...I don't know. It's not this place. I've got seven years here. I've made some awesome shit happen, at least from a story perspective, and I'm proud of that. Even though I didn't come up with the idea for Chubbs when it first started, I like to think I contributed in some way to the IC world, however minuscule, and made something there. I've slowed down because I've lost grasp of my muse, but that doesn't mean it isn't there somewhere. The embers burn, but the flame can still be made, if that analogy makes sense. I guess the reason why I would rather stay here and try to do something with Chubbs is because this place has done a lot for me, both online and off, relationship-wise and just for me as a person. I feel at home here, and regardless of how everybody feels about me, and how I sometimes feel about them, it's hard to fathom not coming online and seeing you guys every now and then. It sucks that people are disappearing, but it gives me some hope that every now and again, one of the vets comes back to check in.

For me, one of the most disappointing disappearances would be Nick's, as I really enjoyed his company and his advice, and he was a HELL of a writer and all around awesome friend...but as I understand, he's got real life issues to deal with, and that's perfectly fine. The only thing I can really do is just hope he's doing alright, and maybe come back one of these days to say hi.

Just like Americans are proud of their country, and many would fight for it, I am proud of this place, and seeing it pretty much on the brink of death has inspired a bit of patriotism (if that word works) to fight for it. If I've got to whore every damned message board, web ring, social websites, and whatever to get the link out there and bring people in, so be it, but in my current state, I just do not think I could be as effective. That's not meaning to be offensive, but you guys don't have to say it outright for me not to pick up on the vibe that you're just not feeling the role anymore. It's perfectly understandable. It's a lot of pressure to be under, especially when the activity is booming, and you're bombarded with problems and questions, and then have real life issues going on, or other interests to dip into. Me? Other than needing to find a job, going through school which takes up a few hours a day for me, and some random errands, I feel pretty confident that I can do whatever it takes to at least give putting this place back on track a shot. I have the extra time, even when I get a job, to invest time back into this place.

Basically, what it boils down to is that my attempts to start my own boards have fallen flat because I do not feel for them as I feel for this place. There's a lot to go off of already, and I enjoy the company. This is a familiar place. It's one of the things that I have been passionate about since I realized I fit in...in some weird way. I guess I should also point out that a lot of the boards that have spun off of this one, unique or inspired, have failed, while this one somehow manages to crawl onward. If I can even inspire a few people to get active again, then I would feel I have succeeded.

EDIT:

You're definitely not coming off as defensive. I actually was being defensive earlier in this post, but just for the bit about people at the top making quality posts. Hopefully nothing else came off as defensive/was offensive.

It's all good, seriously. If there's one thing that I've learned being with my husband, it's learning how to discuss things without pussing out at the slightest hint of aggression. I do not feel you were that way, but it is a little intimidating on some level to be discussing something like this to an administrator. I am really trying to just talk to Mario, the guy who hangs around here, and not Kaden, the administrator who holds the very power of ban or no ban over me. It's refreshing to talk this out, and I appreciate it.
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Also...sorry for the length of my posts. I feel I have to address these things as thorough as possible so that I do not give the wrong ideas.