If you havin' ghoul problems I feel bad for you son (3.3)

[Majicka]

It's not just easy. The new raid, ToC, was so easy that it was retarded. You could walk into it fresh 80 as a dps and do good enough. It is the easiest raid ever made in WoW, and because of it I died a little inside.

[Kazuya]

you guys can't just enjoy the game? =|

[Majicka]

I do. While sometimes it's painful, I do. I adore WoW, and I was glad to know that according to Game Informer magazine it is the 21st greatest game of all time. However that doesn't make me agree with everything they do.

For example. I'm a frost mage, primarily. Last patch they gave us a talent that made our frost bolts reduce healing received on the person who was chilled, pretty much giving us a mortal strike, like warriors. But that's what aggravates me. Blizzard needs to stop giving out other classes defining abilities (Mortal Strike being the arm warriors thang), especially to a class (frost mages), who don't need a pvp buff.

[Kaden]

It's not just easy. The new raid, ToC, was so easy that it was retarded. You could walk into it fresh 80 as a dps and do good enough.

I don't see that as a problem.

The whole raiding meta-game is ridiculously intimidating to try and get into. Frankly, I'd rather have something that I can have fun with than deal with the endless elitist fucking pieces of shit who get to decide whether you're playing the game correctly or not before letting you raid.

[Vad]

I don't see that as a problem.

The whole raiding meta-game is ridiculously intimidating to try and get into. Frankly, I'd rather have something that I can have fun with than deal with the endless elitist fucking pieces of shit who get to decide whether you're playing the game correctly or not before letting you raid.

/agreed.

The server my 70 paladin is on happens to be Stormreaver. Impervious and Corrupt Loot Council both populate that server...if you raid at ALL or read any forums you know who they are. They sell raid runs (carry you) for like 5000 gold a run. Badge runs and achievement runs. These are people who tank and every hit against them is a dodge, block, or parry.

tl;dr: They are elitist as you're going to get and me and my buddy joined the server. >.>

[Majicka]

I don't see that as a problem.

The whole raiding meta-game is ridiculously intimidating to try and get into. Frankly, I'd rather have something that I can have fun with than deal with the endless elitist fucking pieces of shit who get to decide whether you're playing the game correctly or not before letting you raid.

Playing the game correctly isn't the problem. It's that gear you worked for six months to get is completely useless because a fresh 80 can get a higher level of gear, skipping the time you put in, and have the same level of gear as you. That'd be like, on chubbs for instance, if someone started with 4,000 CA because the staff thought that it'd be hard for him to catch up to Kaden from 500 CA.

Edit: I don't like to think of myself as a Elitist, but I do think a person should have to put in the time and effort that everyone else had to, even if it is a video game. I love the opportunities that it provides, but making raids that are frustratingly simple (and I mean simple. As in, there is no way you should ever die in the raid if you have common sense) is annoying.

[Orion]

Playing the game correctly isn't the problem. It's that gear you worked for six months to get is completely useless because a fresh 80 can get a higher level of gear, skipping the time you put in, and have the same level of gear as you. That'd be like, on chubbs for instance, if someone started with 4,000 CA because the staff thought that it'd be hard for him to catch up to Kaden from 500 CA.

It's not completely useless. It still does the same things, regardless of how much time you put into it. All that matters is that you have fun playing the game. Plus, you had the gear for six months while they didn't. I think complaining about that sort of thing is stupid.

[Vad]

It's not completely useless. It still does the same things, regardless of how much time you put into it. All that matters is that you have fun playing the game. Plus, you had the gear for six months while they didn't. I think complaining about that sort of thing is stupid.

EDIT: Wait...What? Nvm.

[Majicka]

I agree that it is about fun. But you cannot honestly tell me you'd be happy if a new person joined Chubbs and had the same amount of CA as you, Orion, so that they could fight you evenly.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to catch up, because that's annoying on a game when you can never be as good as the top people on the game. But having gear resets every patch with mind numbingly easy raids (Not hard modes), isn't a good substitute for game play.

[Orion]

I agree that it is about fun. But you cannot honestly tell me you'd be happy if a new person joined Chubbs and had the same amount of CA as you, Orion, so that they could fight you evenly.

I wouldn't care too much. It doesn't take away any from me, it's not like I'm weaker. Usually, when things like that DO happen, it's for the sake of the game, which I'm all for. If anyone remembers about two-three years ago when we did a big stat reset with a new formula, I ended up getting boned the most in power level (when I was Goku) but complained the least.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to catch up, because that's annoying on a game when you can never be as good as the top people on the game. But having gear resets every patch with mind numbingly easy raids (Not hard modes), isn't a good substitute for game play.

Perhaps, but Blizzard are in it for the money, and the more people they exclude from seeing top end content from difficulty (I never raided against Illidan, for example) the less people will be willing to stick around and play.

[Majicka]

I do agree that the more who see a endgame boss is for the better. Not just from a money standpoint, but honestly, from a personal standpoint. While I don't think I'm a horrible player I'm by no means the best. I'd have never made the sunwell cut back in the day, for instance. Or even black temple, most likely.

But it's not like this has just happened once. In 3.3 the emblems that drop from the current top raid will drop from all heroics, effectively doing another gear reset within a few months from the last one.

[Ashe]

Here's a way of looking at it. The complaint is this: Being able to immediately walk into the last stuff with equal level gear and having the boss weakened in patches until you can beat it is like you playing all the way through FFVII/Diablo2/StarCraft/Mario/ResidentEvil/whatever and finally beating it, and then having some guy come up to you a week later and tell you that he used a set of cheat codes to start the game, immediately start at the last level, an Immortality code to keep him from dying, infinite ammo, and the ability to kill anything in one hit. Then 90 more people come up saying it to, and inform you that you are a moron and _____ stage or boss wasn't hard at all, that maybe you just suck because they never died once. They also don't bother to play any of the rest of the game, and complain that the game was too short and thus the game itself sucked as well.

The counterpoint is that you got to enjoy the game itself when you were playing through for the content in the form it was intended to be in. The downside is if you ARE playing for a competitive environment, being told that your accomplishment of running the marathon that you worked for is stupid because the other six were able to start at ten feet from the finish line as you got close to where they were is absolutely nothing, because they crossed the line too and deserve just as much feeling of accomplishment.

So yeah, I DO see the argument in both lights. Some people DO go overboard with it in the feeling of elitism (I feel everyone should be able to see some content, but I don't agree with walking them through the final boss anymore than every NASA mission requiring a random guest minority that did nothing to work their way into being there), but there also IS some loss of feeling of accomplishment to see it.

Another example is when you bust your ass in school for a High School Diploma and being the first member of your family to do so, and then get beaten at a job by someone that (not those with understandable situations) dropped out at 16, got into drugs, then went down and got a GED from a school that they heard was extremely easy, then brags that they deserve the job as much as you do.

[Majicka]

Here's a way of looking at it. The complaint is this: Being able to immediately walk into the last stuff with equal level gear and having the boss weakened in patches until you can beat it is like you playing all the way through FFVII/Diablo2/StarCraft/Mario/ResidentEvil/whatever and finally beating it, and then having some guy come up to you a week later and tell you that he used a set of cheat codes to start the game, immediately start at the last level, an Immortality code to keep him from dying, infinite ammo, and the ability to kill anything in one hit. Then 90 more people come up saying it to, and inform you that you are a moron and _____ stage or boss wasn't hard at all, that maybe you just suck because they never died once. They also don't bother to play any of the rest of the game, and complain that the game was too short and thus the game itself sucked as well.

The counterpoint is that you got to enjoy the game itself when you were playing through for the content in the form it was intended to be in. The downside is if you ARE playing for a competitive environment, being told that your accomplishment of running the marathon that you worked for is stupid because the other six were able to start at ten feet from the finish line as you got close to where they were is absolutely nothing, because they crossed the line too and deserve just as much feeling of accomplishment.

So yeah, I DO see the argument in both lights. Some people DO go overboard with it in the feeling of elitism (I feel everyone should be able to see some content, but I don't agree with walking them through the final boss anymore than every NASA mission requiring a random guest minority that did nothing to work their way into being there), but there also IS some loss of feeling of accomplishment to see it.

Another example is when you bust your ass in school for a High School Diploma and being the first member of your family to do so, and then get beaten at a job by someone that (not those with understandable situations) dropped out at 16, got into drugs, then went down and got a GED from a school that they heard was extremely easy, then brags that they deserve the job as much as you do.

That is the way I wanted to put it, and shows my feelings exactly, almost to a creepy extent. As if, perhaps, we are long lost siblings..

[Kaden]

Neither of those examples are applicable, in my eyes. Using cheat codes and skipping ahead is not what is happening in WoW (the second example is just laughable, Ashe. C'mon, you're basically saying the someone who's going from dropping out and doing drugs to getting a GED and trying to get ahead in a job is not doing work). People complete a raid and get loot. That the exact same formula. The people that "bust their asses" can do it just as easily as the people who are "fresh 80" (though, by WoW logic they should have an infinitely easier time since they already know how to play their character, rite?).

That complaint is complete bullshit. Shit changes. Most changes are more beneficial for one group of people than another. Get over it. An easier raid for good loot (I'm assuming it's "good" since there are actually complaints about this) provides the same opportunities for every single player. The complaint is pure ego.

[Ashe]

That is the way I wanted to put it, and shows my feelings exactly, almost to a creepy extent. As if, perhaps, we are long lost siblings..

On that note, I'm going to take tomorrow off to board up my windows.

[Ashe]

Neither of those examples are applicable, in my eyes. Using cheat codes and skipping ahead is not what is happening in WoW (the second example is just laughable, Ashe. C'mon, you're basically saying the someone who's going from dropping out and doing drugs to getting a GED and trying to get ahead in a job is not doing work). People complete a raid and get loot. That the exact same formula. The people that "bust their asses" can do it just as easily as the people who are "fresh 80" (though, by WoW logic they should have an infinitely easier time since they already know how to play their character, rite?).

That complaint is complete bullshit. Shit changes. Most changes are more beneficial for one group of people than another. Get over it. An easier raid for good loot (I'm assuming it's "good" since there are actually complaints about this) provides the same opportunities for every single player. The complaint is pure ego.

Like I said, I think both sides of it have merit. I'm sorry you disagree. We'll just have to disagree then.

[Kaden]

"Complaints" like this just make me sad. The whole WoW community, to me, is stuck so far up its own ass that it doesn't even know why it plays anymore.

Yeah, yeah, it's an over-generalization and I know it. But when you see this same bullshit every single time even the tiniest thing is changed, it gets old.

[Majicka]

So when do you want me to come over, Ashe?

And I like my long lost sibling, I do agree that both sides have merit, as well. I just don't like how gun ho they've been towards people who have yet to earn their gear, and hope they tweak their ways a little bit.

As for the generalization you just made, I think you need to understand, from someone who still plays WoW, that changing the entire games system isn't a small thing. Making it so you can waltz into raids right at 80, and not having to get geared first, isn't something to be taken lightly. That's how the game was for FOUR years. Close to five, honestly. Change is good, but I think they overdid it to much. Bridging the gap doesn't have to negate anything people worked for, for you know, months.

[Kaden]

As for the generalization you just made, I think you need to understand, from someone who still plays WoW, that changing the entire games system isn't a small thing. Making it so you can waltz into raids right at 80, and not having to get geared first, isn't something to be taken lately. That's how the game was for FOUR years. Close to five, honestly.

I understand game theory.

[Ashe]

"Complaints" like this just make me sad. The whole WoW community, to me, is stuck so far up its own ass that it doesn't even know why it plays anymore.

Yeah, yeah, it's an over-generalization and I know it. But when you see this same bullshit every single time even the tiniest thing is changed, it gets old.

Don't get me wrong, its frustrating to me too. I'm just saying I see (in my personal - albeit bullshit - opinion) some justification in both sides of the argument. The stance one takes in it is largely based on their views of what they seek in an MMO and what type of game they are trying to play.

And (even though this is likely to be met with extreme disagreement) its not just the WoW community that reacts like this. (Just like that "zomg its always alliance that does this, never horde" argument) I'd say a large portion of the online Blizzard playing, or even just generic online gaming, community is like this. We see the same types of douchebags playing LoL for example. But while playing with friends, you can just go "Oh well, they are cocks, whatever" and blow it off.

EDIT: And don't get me wrong. I don't necessarily agree with everything said in this thread and would hope that anyone wouldn't assume such. For example, I think there should be some way to get into raids quickly at 80 for those in guilds needing, say, a healer, and someone agreeing to level one and help. They shouldn't have to make a choice of being run through the places every week in hopes of gear dropping or not raid because they need another healer.

So I do think they are making great strides in some ways, but great personal annoyances in others.