Dante's Abyss 2011

[Celena]

Depends how rare it is because bear in mind, people will already be getting killed for inactivity and stepping into danger zones, and possibly for encountering one an other along the grid. The coliseum concept should only come into play when it gets to the point where players aren't stepping into the same location anymore.

[Jonathan Meer]

Jesus, buncha sissies.

It's fucking DANTE'S ABYSS. You have to go in with the knowledge that you may get ass-raped, and it might not be completely fair.

[Victoria]

Look, we can't make everyone happy. The colliseum MAY happen, it MAY not. Death WILL happen, you should know that, that's what we're getting at. There's that chance. So join DA, and do your best, and chances are you'll be fine.

[Jonathan Meer]

In all seriousness, this thread expresses quite clearly a trend that has worried me about Chubbs:

'My character should die only when I say so.'

[Victoria]

Death is a punishment, it has always been seen that way. There's nothing to really get out of it except isolation. No one wants that, anyone who died ended up getting angry and nearly quitting or going inactive (except a few members). People shouldn't die just because you think it's "not serious enough". Death should be for the story, not for an opinion. We're already trying to compromise with saying you could possibly die in a fight. Take it or leave it.

[Jarka]

In all seriousness, this thread expresses quite clearly a trend that has worried me about Chubbs:

'My character should die only when I say so.'

Don't people get cool shit when they die? Like, from Afterlife quests? Maybe that should be brought up more in arguments involving real death.

I personally really like the idea of the coliseum, even if (especially if?) it's "every x rounds there is a fight to the death." Also, if it's not, like, the first rounds. Give people a little time to get their bearings.

[Sophia]

Don't people get cool shit when they die? Like, from Afterlife quests? Maybe that should be brought up more in arguments involving real death.

I personally really like the idea of the coliseum, even if (especially if?) it's "every x rounds there is a fight to the death." Also, if it's not, like, the first rounds. Give people a little time to get their bearings.

I thought someone would say this. I went through it, got the cool shit. If I didn't have anything and had the chance between going back and staying alive, I would take staying alive every time.

Anyway, as far as the saga goes, we've basically made our decision. We understand the points brought up, and we'll do our best to please everyone, but bear in mind that actually pleasing everyone is likely impossible.

[Jonathan Meer]

Honestly. I just don't get it.

There is, fundamentally, no significant OOC difference between the Afterlife and the Beforelife, except that of separation between the two. There is PLENTY to write about in the afterlife. If it is viewed with an atmosphere of stagnation, that's entirely in your own mind.

Let alone the impact of a death upon the psychology of a character. That's big shit.

As for Vic's argument about death, it comes down to a fundamental difference in the way Chubbs is viewed. Personally, I view the world of Chubbs in terms of two entities: my character, and everything else. There is a world outside of my character that moves and breathes and has desires and explosions and gooeyness. Some things in that world outside of my character would seek to kill him. Some things in that world would seek to benefit him. Most things don't give a shit.

If we want to have any semblance of an actual world outside of our characters, if we want to have a legitimate alternative to the rampant communal-solipsism that many people have complained about with regard to the current Chubbs system, then we MUST have a world that is outside of all PCs, and is dangerous.

[Victoria]

We can't all have that viewpoint.

Thus,

Anyway, as far as the saga goes, we've basically made our decision. We understand the points brought up, and we'll do our best to please everyone, but bear in mind that actually pleasing everyone is likely impossible.

[Piper Juunanagou]

Being dead sucks.

Edit: Especially since, nowadays, you have to finish a shit ton of crap to be not dead.

[Alexander Trafford]

Dying sucks. I don't even RP with anyone, and I still thought that it sucked. Meer's right, there really is no difference between the two except isolation. That's a fairly big thing so due to the fact that a majority of people on this site enjoy writing in pairs or in groups. But even as someone who literally never writes with anyone else except sagas, it was still horrible. I've never really done a personal storyline in the afterlife, granted, and I can see that being pretty fun with my current character, but the 'good shit' you get in the afterlife is absolutely horrible, and is a bad joke. I did the KK quests and then half of the GK quests during pre-turnover times and it was absolutely horrible, they drove me into inactivity both times. They're so damn long. Ten quests, 4-8 posts each, roughly, depending on length, quality and which quest you are on. Let's say four posts each for 1-3, 5 posts each for 4-5, 6 posts each for 6-7, 7 each for 8-9 and 8 for ten. That's 56 posts. That's a lot. That takes a long time. And it's damn boring if you ask me. Death is the worst, worst thing that can happen on this site. Literally if one of my characters died now I'd either change characters or just stop. I wouldn't do that shit again. Horrible.

And I wasn't even being punished for bad RPing or whatever. It wasn't like my RP quality was so low that I died. Most of the time KK was seen as, like, a reward or something. Which is ironic because it was so, so, SO, CRUEL.

[Jarka]

Fair enough on the death sucks point. Perhaps the rules/afterlife forum headers should be altered to make it clear that it is not all that pleasurable - it gave me the impression that, hey, you're dead, but you can do whatever and the bonus is so worth it! It's a little bit more grim with the post estimation by Trafford.

Maybe the effects of death should be reconsidered in the rules discussion that's been simmering, too.

Yet, I still enjoy the risk of player death in DA, as long as it's not 100% random or, like, every round. If you have to, on occasion, bump up your game in the coliseum to be sure you make it out alive, then your life or death is in your own hands.

[Jonathan Meer]

It should be pointed out that training with King Kai is by no means guaranteed upon death. It is awarded by Staff.

[Orion]

There is, fundamentally, no significant OOC difference between the Afterlife and the Beforelife, except that of separation between the two. There is PLENTY to write about in the afterlife.

On paper I'm sure that's how it looks like, but you lose a lot of freedom. Sure there's fodder there, but if I want to team up with Vic and Vad for some writing, I can't until I go through the arbitrary process of satisfying four masters of Heaven and then I can come back to life. The only real upside is KK, and like you said, it's not a given (especially since we're thinking to make power ups hard to get like the old days) so yeah. Talking from experience here too.

The afterlife would probably be better if 1) there was a time limit before you were revived or 2) the requirements for coming back to life were lessened. Otherwise, I'm really not interested in risking death simply because it's a saga.

[Juno]

I actually want Juno to die at some point. I've got... ideas.

But anyway, I'm pretty much cool with any type of Dante's Abyss. I just want a Dante's Abyss.

[Sophia]

I'm no staff member, but if any of you want to continue this discussion, please make another thread. This stopped being relevant to the saga a while ago.

[Alexander Trafford]

I think the advantages and disadvantages of death is very relevant to a discussion about a saga that has to do with death. Orion just said he wouldn't risk death in order to participate in this saga, I said the same, and others have expressed differently. Unless you're already one hundred percent sure on whether or not you plan on letting people die, then this discussion is still relevant. If you are one hundred percent sure you're going to use the death system you briefly mentioned on the page prior, then yea, it's no longer relevant.

So, is that the system you're planning on using? The Real Death = collar explosion, inactivity, or defeat with a massive, massive point gap, and Simulated Death = elimination in the normal sense of the word?

[Android-18]

Bascially, we understand what everyone is saying, and now it's starting to sound like a broken record. We'll take it all into consideration when we make the saga. It's still a ways off.

[Sophia]

We've already made our decision because we've talked about it a lot, and this sentiment has been expressed by both Becca and myself more than once just on this page alone. The thing about these discussions is that everyone expresses one opinion and tries to hammer it down everyone else's throat. I don't intend to be mean or dismissive, but...

In any case, yes, that is likely going to be the system we're going to use. Rules and information are already being written.

EDIT: That's as far as death goes. Grading and death will be the same regardless of the actual system we use--right now, the old system and new are tied.

[Jonathan Meer]

I resent that. I (and others) have presented arguments. We have not been dogmatic.

Strong opinions presented through argumentation =/= hammering down throats

I probably won't be participating if death isn't a significant part of the upcoming DA. I won't be able to take it seriously.

EDIT: All of that said, if you'd prefer to take one side of the argument over another, and construct your saga accordingly, by all means, go for it. But don't pretend that our discussion here on the nature of death is irrelevant, or pointless, or resolved.