Just how real is the Net?

[Sigfried Hunin]

I mean, yes, there can be a massive battle between the waking world and the net without it completely devouring almost every aspect of life. There should still be people on the street, there should still be people doing things like going to bars and sports arenas. Are they nearly as popular as they were before the net? No, they aren't, but there is still a somewhat functional society outside of it, even if it is a bit lonely.

One of the major themes of my story was going to be that people WEREN'T as interested in sports anymore and he was going broke, but there is definitely still a market and there is definitely still a place for him in the world. It's just on the brink of extinction now because over 30 years the net has consumed a LOT, just not ALL.

I imagine the society of this world being on the BRINK of falling into the dystopian future you described, not after they have fallen. People struggling to pull people back from the tragedy that is so clearly laid out ahead of them.

[Blue]

I can get behind that. It's mostly what I had thought of. What I consider dystopian must be rather mild in comparison to what you think. I'm thinking most of the adherents to the waking world would be those who are too old to want any of this new-fangled technology, those who are financially or medically unable to do so, or those few who still think that reality is better than the virtual world. Every day brings more people over to the Net, and without a drastic change in society, it's unlikely to change. You can see businesses closing left and right, and even those professions which had once flourished are about to go extinct.

I can't imagine there are many people trying to stop it either. Maybe those who made their livings like yourself, ex-business-owners, fanatics, and the older generation. And I can see their voices drowned out by the majority. Many of them will either die, or simply give-up and join the bandwagon.

So, yes, while not everything has gone to shit in reality, it's obvious to all but the most deluded that it will very soon.

[Sigfried Hunin]

Fuck, it jsut deleted my post. Ah well.

Anyways, the point of my post is that yes, the Net IS huge. It takes up a big part of life right now. It's where you work, where you play but there is still a world outside of it. There are a lot of older people who don't even have jacks.

I think I'm getting at the fact that this world is on the BRINK of the dystopian future you described. There are Net junkies who frequently die because they wanted to make the net have a sensory component, but it's not so common that everyone has done it (because it's an all or nothing thing. You either have the additional surgery or you don't). For most people, they have to get out of the net and go do things to have the full range of experience, and the risk is too high for them to get the additional implants.

People see us about to careen into this dark abyss of the net as "Stim-Netting" (I MADE A TERM UP, LOOK AT ME) becomes more common, but we haven't fallen into it yet. WE're not quite at the matrix level yet where we just never ever leave, but the threat is present.

One of the major conflicts for my story was going to be that live-action pro sports have declined so much that he might go broke, so it's not like everything is hunky-dorey, we're just not quite in a never-ending abyss of cyber-addiction. Yet.

EDIT: Oh, whoops, that's why I couldn't see it, it was on the second page. SORRY, DOUBLE POST KINDA.

[Blue]

Lol! No biggy. I replied to it. I suppose that by dystopian, I simply meant that compared to even how invasive the internet is today, The Net makes it seem like a passing fancy. Because, even without Stim-Jacking, it is still a highly addictive virtual experience. Especially as things continue to degrade in reality, more and more people will want an escape.

[Sigfried Hunin]

Totally agree. I'm glad that we've hashed this out. I think most people will agree with the conclusions we came to, but I guess we'll ahve to wait and see.

[Blue]

So, I suppose to summarize our conclusions thus far:

The Net is a big part of society. In comparison to The Net, reality itself seems to be lackluster. Even as dangerous as these implants are, The Net is as addictive as any drug and there are some who feel the danger worth the risk.

Most work is done on The Net and almost all entertainment. Every day, places in the real world go out of business, and workers are laid off. Even those professions which had thrived before The Net have all but gone to dust. Only those who are unable, or unwilling have been all but assimilated into a culture where The Net is all.

With the advances in Stim-Jacking, or the ability to feel sensations through The Net, it seems as though the last nail is about to be driven into the coffin of reality. Once people are able to experience The Net as well, or even better than their own bodies, what is there left to keep them in the world we know?

[Sigfried Hunin]

Also, Stim-Jacking will probably kill you due to the additional large neural implant that's required.

[Jonathan Meer]

At 30% mortality rate, I really have a hard time believing ANYONE would take that risk. I like the idea of it being safe procedure if done with the highest grade (ie, expensive) physicians with the highest grade implants, but your typical citizen won't be able to afford that.

As for the distinction between the Net and the Waking World, you can't shoot someone in the Net. If you're involved in any sort of lethal intrigue, you'd want to participate in the Waking World.

Not that that's the only reason. I intend to play a character who is made nauseous by the neural transition between the waking world and the Net, and thus avoids it.

[Blue]

Think about the risks people go through today for their addictions, and I can see The Net being far more addictive than any drug on the market. A totally immersive world where you can leave behind everything that sucks in reality and seriously be anything you want. You don't just play God of War. You ARE Kratos. Anyone seeking to escape reality, which I would assume would be more and more people the more advanced The Net gets, would have to think hard on whether or not it might be worth it. Especially as the world continues to be put under by The Net.

But I agree more with the expensive route in any case. I just assume that there'd be people will to try any back-alley doctor with a snake-oil system, or even stolen technology.

[Sigfried Hunin]

Yeahhhh I think its a super hardcore thing that only the truly devoted do, but I don't think its.worth of to.go into exact logistic.

[Sigfried Hunin]

Ok so how do we make this "official"? Do we just come to a general concensus and then a mod makes a decision? Do we do a poll?

[Kaden]

I haven't read through all of this thread yet, but wanted to respond to this.

We need to touch, feel, have intimate contact. Not only that, but humanity CRAVES novel nervous input. We drink, we do drugs, we exercise for the sheer joy of feeling the burn of it. Hell, how many physical hobbies do we have NOW even though we can do them virtually? Music, art, all of that we can synthesize in far more efficient and interesting ways than can be done with a physical form, but we still cling to physicality.

I think the base assumptions for this argument are completely invalid given the setting of the game. Efficiency has nothing to do with why people pursue the physical today and creates an example that refuses to take into consideration what would be massive societal shift.

People pursue the physical because there's no way to reproduce the stimulus it provides. Given that all stimulus is based on electrical impulses, it's an easy leap that, in a sci-fi/cyberpunk setting, implants that allow direct connection into a computer would be able to reproduce such impulses. If something tells your brain you're feeling joy, it doesn't matter if its a cognitive reaction to something good happening around you or its a computer chip telling your brain that it's receiving the same set of signals: you're feeling joy.

So, yeah. I'll keep reading, but this struck as a particularly important basis upon which arguments were being made (and may have well resolved itself further on in the thread and, if so, I apologize for beating a dead horse).

[Sigfried Hunin]

Horse beaten, sadly.

[Kaden]

Noted. Preferred to sounding like I hadn't read everything over forgetting what I was going to say.

[Kaden]

I imagine the society of this world being on the BRINK of falling into the dystopian future you described, not after they have fallen.

That's interesting.

I imagined the setting as the exact opposite. A society in which everything had JUST gone over the edge, as opposed to being one that was teetering.

[Orion]

How 'real' is reality in the Net? Are we looking at an almost perfect facsimile of real life or something similar to the Matrix where rules can be bent? Or perhaps even further than that?

[Jonathan Meer]

@Sig, Kaden: For my part, I viewed it as one teetering on dystopia as well, with some elements already in place (forced non-anonymity, for example). If it is already dystopic, then it still has quite a ways left to fall.

@Orion: 'Rules' in the Net depend on the particular virtual hub (think 'web site'). The rules for a teenager's virtual hub could differ from the rules of the official St. Petersburg virtual hub.

@Sig: I'm considering making a wiki. We definitely do need a mechanism for making things official, but I haven't landed on one yet. In the meantime, we can remember these tidbits.

[Sigfried Hunin]

How 'real' is reality in the Net? Are we looking at an almost perfect facsimile of real life or something similar to the Matrix where rules can be bent? Or perhaps even further than that?

I think the consensus me and blue and Meer came to (feel free to challenge our opinions though) was that it was pretty much exactly real visually and audibly but taste, smell, proprioception, heat and touch can only be achieved by "Stim-jacking" or "stimming," which basically means you get another, much more dangerous, neural implant that has a mortality rate of about 30%.

The amount of people that are actively stimming depends on what we decide on for how bad stuff has gotten.

[Tyr]

@Orion: 'Rules' in the Net depend on the particular virtual hub (think 'web site'). The rules for a teenager's virtual hub could differ from the rules of the official St. Petersburg virtual hub.

Would these website's terms be based on hardware, programming, software or a mixture? Would a teenager be able to mirror life on his freehubbspages hub or only people with serious manpower/financing? Would a glitch in the coding be a danger to the visitor without stimjacking?

[Victoria]

SO, what about the prostitutes? Eh? Are they null and void? Let's talk about their place in this game ?

My thinking is that poor people can only afford the bare minimum, and so they don't get to feel the fancy stuff, and so they have to get that physical connection offline.

Also, what about long-term affects? Would people get bad joints, or possibly some creepy ailments from being jacked in for a long time?

Naturally, we all need to eat/sleep/crap, so, people have to take breaks...or are their pods for those who can afford them that take care of all the basic needs?