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+--- Thread: Importance of Stats - Staff Only (/showthread.php?tid=13421)
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Pinky - 01-12-2009
Okay, text isn't so good for sarcasm.
Well, there's conflicting opinion, and not just from us plebeian non-staff.
Jonathan Meer Wrote:Endurance defends against both strength and focus-based attacks.The qualifier here is "attack". Ki barriers aren't attacks. Belle also raised a good point about certain stats becoming all-encompassing % dumps, which leads back to my original point that Ki is auto-king in the current set-up. Now, if that's the offical ruling then fine, and if there's some sort of consensus among the staff about this that's not being posted in this thread for reasons unknown, then just say "suck my ki"
Strength and Focus are two different ways to attack.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Pinky - 01-12-2009
From the other thread, posts weigh in on this line of questions.
Kaden Wrote:Fair enough. I'll try to leave my answers as plainly put as I can.Not that I'm questioning the validity of this, but for Focus to supply speed to ki only makes the ki=king factor that much more intense.
Strength is physical strength. It has no bearing on movement or attack speed.
Endurance deals with how well you receive a blow, be it physical or metaphysical.
Agility covers the speed of all physical movements. It has no effect over the movement of ki, or ki-related techniques.
Focus deals with the use of ki. I want to say "external use of ki" but I'm going to hold off on doing so just yet. This means the efficacy and speed of ki techniques. Focus has no bearing on anything physical.
Focus = ki attack power, ki barrier power, ki speed
Meanwhile, physically-oriented characters have to split their % between Strength, Endurance, and Agility.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Kaden - 01-12-2009
The balance I see is that while Focus covers more, it deals with something significantly more finite. If Kaden has 80% and Rod has 80%, and they're both out of ki, Kaden is pretty much hosed while Rod can still throw a pretty decent punch.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Waffuru - 01-12-2009
It's not like a ki shield will hold up against repeated abused anyways. :/
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Pinky - 01-12-2009
You can't abuse a ki barrier that blasts you away. Right, Rad? :B
This has been pretty informative concerning Focus limits (or lack of). It comes down to what effect Character A's X% Focus blast/barrier does against Character B's X% Strength/Endurance/Agility, and since I can't get an answer on that we'll just see how it plays out. Focus's definition needs to be changed again to explain its comprehensive nature, and Agility needs a point about how it deals exclusively with physical action and has nothing to do with ki in any way. Their vague and patchy phrases make them very, very misinformative.
One last basic question I should have asked earlier: if two characters with identical CA have different Focus (25% and 50%) and they both use the same level of attack (power/speed 25%) then are they both using the same amount of stamina, even though one of them is maxing out? And if the latter character uses his maximum (50%) then is he using twice as much stamina? This only seems logical to me, but I'm limited to the information that's written on the forums and I don't trust any of it anymore.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Belle Hibiki - 01-12-2009
Maybe you should stop obsessing over statistics and just roleplay. For being an advocate of a statless system, you seem disturbingly interested in quantifying things that are deliberately left vague.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Kaden - 01-12-2009
Rod Hardwood Wrote:You can't abuse a ki barrier that blasts you away. Right, Rad? :B
To be fair, pushing someone away takes ki. Being pushed away takes nothing. It wouldn't even hurt.
I genuinely can't tell if most of your post is trying to be playful/humorous or passive aggressive/annoying, so I'm just not going to respond to it.
Regardless, to answer your basic questions, no they would not be using the same amount of stamina and yes, if the second guy used his max, he would start using twice as much ki/stamina.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Pinky - 01-12-2009
Belle Hibiki Wrote:Maybe you should stop obsessing over statistics and just roleplay. For being an advocate of a statless system, you seem disturbingly interested in quantifying things that are deliberately left vague.
The vagary is promoting some very distinct untruths. Vague systems demand credulity, of course, but this one has one foot in numbers (implying a degree of calculation) and the other in vagary. If you don't know where the line is drawn between the two it only magnifies the confusion.
Maybe you guys are comfortable with it, but I've spent nearly five years working on NRPG and I've covered these types of issues before. I don't think anybody here is claiming that this system was transparent or coherent enough when it started, and this is how you hammer out the issues. It is a long, brutal process. But if my inquisition is making people feel uncomfortable and it's not accomplishing anything them I'll stop.
Kaden Wrote:To be fair, pushing someone away takes ki. Being pushed away takes nothing. It wouldn't even hurt.I understand this now (it might be helpful to make a note of how ki takes more stamina than physical action on the stats page in the RULES forum, unless it's already there and I simply glossed over it). But, I'm seeing how you're skirting the game's dynamics more than anyone else and so you're the one I choose to use when bringing up these kinds of points.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Jack - 01-12-2009
Why don't we leave this to staff when they are actually grading these encounters? Your job is to set up a character for how you wish to roleplay him/her. When it comes to actually taking stats into account, it's out of your hands completely.
Why do you care?
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Pinky - 01-12-2009
Because knowledge of how the game works would do a world of good when making a character. Character creation is not the first step: understanding the rules is the first step. The rules were confusing when I made mine, so now I'm pushing at every angle that everybody else is leaving alone so I can make an informed decision on whether or not to create a new character or just play with what I've already got.
The willingness of members here to just lay back and watch the staff play the game has always been a fascinating phenomenon to me. I almost hope you guys never change.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Kaden - 01-12-2009
Rod Hardwood Wrote:It is a long, brutal process. But if my inquisition is making people feel uncomfortable and it's not accomplishing anything them I'll stop.
It is most definitely a long and, more often than not, brutal process. No argument here.
I don't have any problems with trying to push the system, as it were, but it can seem... overwhelming at times. I guess "overwhelming" is the right word.
Rod Hardwood Wrote:I understand this now (it might be helpful to make a note of how ki takes more stamina than physical action on the stats page in the RULES forum, unless it's already there and I simply glossed over it). But, I'm seeing how you're skirting the game's dynamics more than anyone else and so you're the one I choose to use when bringing up these kinds of points.
Heheheh... I'll assume that you're intended to imply that I have any ulterior motives.
If it would easy any concerns, though, I can leave these kinds of questions to Bardock.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Juno - 01-12-2009
I always was under the assumption that ki barriers would not trump the endurance stat because they're significantly weaker.
If the ki barrier is going to be such a powerful defensive tech, then that seems to ruin the point of endrance. But if, as I assumed, a ki barrier would take maybe one good punch before being broken, and a high endurance could have someone sitting there punching your gut for hours without moving you at all (a la Kaden v Marius) then it seems to work just fine.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Kaden - 01-12-2009
A ki barrier is definitely not a substitute for endurance.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Juno - 01-12-2009
Then I don't understand the point of this argument? I mean, everything has its advantages defensive-wise. With strength, you could easily slap someone's hand away as they were about to hit you. With agility, you can dodge. With endurance, you can stand there and not get hurt. It just seems that Focus is being taken more seriously because the particular defensive use of focus requires a custom tech because it is a very specific molding of the ability. Just because it's freaking more specific does NOT mean it is more powerful. If anything, it makes it weaker.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Sage - 01-12-2009
That's the point we've been trying to make.
Take Kaden as a perfect example. He's a glass cannon. Like... Black Mage.
No doubt he can go "pew pew" and make you fall down but if Marius punched him in the face really hard then he would fall down.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Ashe - 01-12-2009
Why are a few people overanalyzing the crap out of the stat system? I don't understand, we put in something extremely simple, and people are wanting to make it a hundred times more complicated than it ever was intended to be.
No one is going to be a stat nazi. We aren't comparing things on a one for one basis, unless we randomly do a saga focused on a specific stat. We don't care what your percentages are, that's for your enjoyment, we just care about your CA, your actual fighting potential.
It doesn't MATTER if someone's Strength is 10% more than someone else's, and ten mathmatical equations using CA to determine exactly how much of that CA is involved in that specific stat. If someone is trying to set up a situation to use a single punch as their entire basis for defeating a character, then they are doing something wrong.
If I have a CA of 4000 and you have a CA of 500, but your strength is 112% using Inner Focus and my Strength is 1%, while I'm definitely not going to be punching you very hard and your punches will hurt, we aren't going to let someone write themselves somehow tying up the other person and punching him over and over with fists of fury as the entire fight. We aren't comparing Strength vs Strength here. Using your overall fighting skills, you shouldn't get placed into a situation where a single stat is going to just completely win the game with that much of a CA difference.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Pinky - 01-13-2009
Kaden Wrote:Heheheh... I'll assume that you're intended to imply that I have any ulterior motives.Pushing the limits is what these types of games are all about. That's the prominent benefit of playing a game where the rules are whatever is written down, and what's written can change. So, the only problem I see is that a number of people are too ready to accept the rules as they are written, or are even hostile to questions, especially since the rules are not written clearly.
If it would easy any concerns, though, I can leave these kinds of questions to Bardock.
Juno Wrote:Then I don't understand the point of this argument? I mean, everything has its advantages defensive-wise. With strength, you could easily slap someone's hand away as they were about to hit you. With agility, you can dodge. With endurance, you can stand there and not get hurt. It just seems that Focus is being taken more seriously because the particular defensive use of focus requires a custom tech because it is a very specific molding of the ability. Just because it's freaking more specific does NOT mean it is more powerful. If anything, it makes it weaker.Depends on what you mean by "specific". From a certain point of view, Focus is not specific. It's actually very comprehensive, being a one-stat-does-all concerning ki. Also, critical parts of Focus were not properly defined until I made this thread and the other one about applying stats. To top it off, the balancing factor between ki-centric characters and physical characters is stamina usage, which is a vague concept that probably won't ever be written about.
Ashe Wrote:Why are a few people overanalyzing the crap out of the stat system? I don't understand, we put in something extremely simple, and people are wanting to make it a hundred times more complicated than it ever was intended to be.So, it doesn't matter that the rules are poorly defined because the whole system is just a superficial distraction? It all just boils down to CA, which requires one player to have posted more "words" IC than the other.
No one is going to be a stat nazi. We aren't comparing things on a one for one basis, unless we randomly do a saga focused on a specific stat. We don't care what your percentages are, that's for your enjoyment, we just care about your CA, your actual fighting potential.
It doesn't MATTER if someone's Strength is 10% more than someone else's, and ten mathmatical equations using CA to determine exactly how much of that CA is involved in that specific stat. If someone is trying to set up a situation to use a single punch as their entire basis for defeating a character, then they are doing something wrong.
If I have a CA of 4000 and you have a CA of 500, but your strength is 112% using Inner Focus and my Strength is 1%, while I'm definitely not going to be punching you very hard and your punches will hurt, we aren't going to let someone write themselves somehow tying up the other person and punching him over and over with fists of fury as the entire fight. We aren't comparing Strength vs Strength here. Using your overall fighting skills, you shouldn't get placed into a situation where a single stat is going to just completely win the game with that much of a CA difference.
You've just taken sucking-the-fun-out-of-shit to a whole new level.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Ashe - 01-13-2009
You are asking if you can TKO your opponent with a single punch if your strength is higher than there's, regardless of CA. I think that takes oversimplification to a much higher level that what we have done.
The pvp elements of this game are NOT intended to involve calculators nor is it "who progressed the story to happen to force the ranged character into melee combat first".
I'm not saying everything is ironed out perfectly, but you keep insisting that everyone stop what they are doing and rebuild the system under your vision. This system was created by a large group of the members of the rpg, and you've so far analyzed every bit of it and insisted that its horrible and needs to be corrected under your own suggestions, and I just don't see where its that much a problem.
For example, if I see the following:
CA - 500
Strength: 30%
Focus: 40%
Endurance: 10%
Agility: 20%
vs
CA- 500
Strength: 10%
Focus: 40%
Endurance: 30%
Agility: 20%
I would call those evenly matched. I'm sure that you'll disagree and have formulaic proof that the guy with 10% endurance loses by default if the guy with 40% focus writes something like "My Kamehameha strikes you dead on", but I completely disagree there.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Belle Hibiki - 01-13-2009
Rod Hardwood Wrote:So, it doesn't matter that the rules are poorly defined because the whole system is just a superficial distraction? It all just boils down to CA, which requires one player to have posted more "words" IC than the other.
You've just taken sucking-the-fun-out-of-shit to a whole new level.
Okay, that's it.
The system is there to provide a general guideline and indication of relative power. And no, CA isn't the only thing that matters, which you would get if you bothered to read through the rules at-fucking-all (which it's clear from your OP that you didn't). Writing quality is still an incredibly - and arguably the most important - factor.
How can you be this thick? How could you possibly forget that cardinal rule? I can't think of anyone else that has had a fraction of the problems you've had, perhaps because everyone else has used a little common sense. Maybe it's because, since the system has something like stats, you're trying to 'game' it and prove how 'broken' it is, but it's not a hard and fast ruleset. The system is a framework that gets put around your writing, not the other way around. It's reflective, not determinant.
No one is going to give a shit if some retard takes 100% ki and tries to argue that his stat is "the best" and, thus, should give him more power than his CA indicates. Judges are going to look at: 1) Quality (important!), 2) CA, and maybe some other mitigating factors. Your stats are meant to show where your aptitudes are, and are weighted equally in the judge's minds, if at all.
I mean seriously. At this point I think you're being deliberately obtuse to flame bait, which I'm ashamed to admit I'm resorting to.
Importance of Stats - Staff Only - Ashe - 01-13-2009
To be fair, I have no problem with someone "power gaming" in general. I do it during DA, I do it when I play MMOs. I try to lean to the more competitive, while still leaving some room for casual dumb fun.
The problem, from my eyes, is that you are wanting to power game in an RPG that does not have a system intended for power gaming. This RPG is not meant to be that nail biting of a competition, where its rigid and every point matters. There are other things for that. This RPG is intended to be a flexible and loosely based on stats, just so some people can hang around and write something and not focus too much on figuring out how to best get an advantage, and yet still enjoy themselves. I love games that are based around that, but this is not one of them. We adjusted the system to fits the needs of the playerbase, not the player.