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+--- Thread: IMPORTANT: Content? (/showthread.php?tid=40817)
IMPORTANT: Content? - Aqua - 11-04-2007
I'd really like to see a reward system that recognized more effort. As it stands, so long as two posts are relatively equal in quality, they get the same reward regardless of length. It seems pretty unfair that one person can write just as well as another person but write twice as much and still only get the same boosts. I know there's an argument that you don't want to reward people who have an overwhelming abundance of time on their hands, but if they're choosing to spend that time writing on this site, why not reward them? if someone is putting in the work, give them rewards proportional to that.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Kirano - 11-04-2007
I'm sorry Aqua but I will always stand by Quality over quantity.
If two people enter a writing tournament, and Roleplayer A writes twice as much as Roleplayer B, but B's RP was twice as good, I don't see why A should advance onto the next round.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Aqua - 11-04-2007
That's just it, i don't understand why the two have to be considered independently. If we can already judge quality, as we do now, why can we not also add relative rewards and consideration for quantity? Obviously, people should be rewarded for writing well. My point is that if two people write equally well, but one person writes twice as much, then the person who writes twice as much should get more rewards. Look at it this way. If I were to write a training thread that was 1,000 words, and then to write a different thread that was 2,000 words, should not the 2,000 word thread get more boosts? it stands to reason that they would be the same quality because they came from the same author. Therefore, why can we not make the same judgements regarding other RPers. I'd say Krillin and Superbuu are pretty even. If they submit two threads of equal quality, but krillin's is twice as long he should get more boosts.
The main objection I've always seen in regards to rewarding length is that people want to say that it's rewarding quantity over quality. This is false. You can recognize both and reward them accordingly. If you need a formula, I can help.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Kirano - 11-04-2007
Aqua Wrote:My point is that if two people write equally well, but one person writes twice as much, then the person who writes twice as much should get more rewards.
Yes, if they write equally well then yeah the one who wrote twice as more should definately be entitled to a greater reward.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Aqua - 11-04-2007
Yeah that's all I'm saying: I'd like to see a system that ensures awardance of rewards for both quantity AND quality.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Raditzu - 11-04-2007
Quality versus quantity is definitely a false dichotomy, I'll be the first to agree. But, what do you see as a reward being given out? I'm missing something there. The only thing people really get rewarded for are quests and staff sagas.
The experience system we were going to implement for Chubbs would have done exactly what we you are asking. Figuring out a way for that system to work is one of the things we're working on.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Toshiro - 11-04-2007
The experiance pretense would enable every one a chance to gain some type ofreward even on the pretense of quility over quintity or vice-versa.
If it was done right, the ammount of experiance would, or should, be based on the idea's, and the gripping extent of the writing, none of the bull about "qvq" and stuff.
The problem we currently face, is that TP's tend to be given out on a set ratio of how it all roll's, the experiance system welcomes a dynamic conferance on to it all where people are rewarded for what they put in. If that's a misconception on my part, then feel free to correct me staff -.-
IMPORTANT: Content? - Amadeus - 11-05-2007
To be honest, there is nothing really wrong with the TP system. Even when it comes to quests, it`s possible to give extra TPs for excellent work. Whereas in sagas, it`s a completely case-by-case matter.
I (for the time being) don`t really see what would be the greater benefit of a XP system then it is of the current TP system.
Here is a suggestion which likely won`t appeal to many. How about if we abolished the stat system completely? Meaning we only have items and power-ups to increase our strength, but our writing is the most important factor. In Chubbs, there has been (for the years after the beggining) a sort of a Catch-22 situation: Writing is more important then stats, yet the mayority of the best writers are also the strongest stat wise. I know that`s completely logical since whoever is the best and most dedicated will also be the strongest. But if we are trying so much to ignore the stat system, why have one at all? Don`t get me wrong, I`m just throwing a possibility for everyone else to think about.
As for the customs system. If it turns out that customs work well, I suggest we have both custom and cannon characters. Meaning new members can join as either. Perhaps a combination will work better then a one type system.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Toshiro - 11-05-2007
The problem is, and it's been brought up time and again, is that the stat system is the sheer prinicple of the RPing buisness. Yes, you can aboslish them, and then let the writers have a free roam over it all, but how far does that get you?
You'll have fresh writers, brand new to the RPing scene, thinking their all big and strong and everything, thinking they could take on some of the best. The stat system, while it may be a sheer pain the arse, is also a strong nesecity for the intergrety of a solid RPing foundation.
If some one came along, brand new on the scene, and we didn't have stats, if they got in to a fight with some one of SSJ2 strength, they could, for all prupose, just turn around and go "oh yeah, look at me, I have more strength then a SSJ2!!!1!!1!" and just RP beating the crap outta him.
The EXP system, whilst I may not know the full in's and out's, does seem like a strongly good idea. It gives us a chance to reset our char's, and buold them from the base up. If it is how I think it is, where the you gain a lvl or some thing with enough EXP, then it'll stand a chance of bringing in some unique chances to build a char, along with rewarding all of us that just enjoy RPing.
A reward for a storyline, weather personal or what ever, would allow a chance to gain some more EXP to then further build on your char. Along with that, it also brings in a chance to abolish the weekly training scheme, weather or not this is aggreeable by the staff is a diffrent matter, but I see it as a chance that people are merely rewarded for their RPing, instead of RPing to then gain two weeks loads of TP.
This making sense, or am I rambling?
IMPORTANT: Content? - Aqua - 11-05-2007
I guess I'll wait to see the specifics on the new XP system before I add more commentary then. Thanks Rad.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Raditzu - 11-05-2007
On the whole, I agree with what Gohan's saying. I've never been a big fan of "stats don't count" situations, though I certainly understand the intended purpose.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Amadeus - 11-05-2007
Gohan Wrote:The problem is, and it's been brought up time and again, is that the stat system is the sheer prinicple of the RPing buisness. Yes, you can aboslish them, and then let the writers have a free roam over it all, but how far does that get you?
You'll have fresh writers, brand new to the RPing scene, thinking their all big and strong and everything, thinking they could take on some of the best. The stat system, while it may be a sheer pain the arse, is also a strong nesecity for the intergrety of a solid RPing foundation.
If some one came along, brand new on the scene, and we didn't have stats, if they got in to a fight with some one of SSJ2 strength, they could, for all prupose, just turn around and go "oh yeah, look at me, I have more strength then a SSJ2!!!1!!1!" and just RP beating the crap outta him.
That`s what I thought too until I remembered that this issue appears even with a stat system implemented. Regardless of the system used, there will always be a few exceptions that think they can rock the entire scene from the very beggining.
Plus, a no-system RPG doesn`t neccesarilly invite such people to do so. Usually such players uphold power-ups (especially SSJ) like a holy grail. As soon as they find out that someone has it and how long it took them to get it, they will realise they are far from being as good as them. This in turn will make them start out more realisticly and strive to improve.
Quote:The EXP system, whilst I may not know the full in's and out's, does seem like a strongly good idea. It gives us a chance to reset our char's, and buold them from the base up. If it is how I think it is, where the you gain a lvl or some thing with enough EXP, then it'll stand a chance of bringing in some unique chances to build a char, along with rewarding all of us that just enjoy RPing.
A reward for a storyline, weather personal or what ever, would allow a chance to gain some more EXP to then further build on your char. Along with that, it also brings in a chance to abolish the weekly training scheme, weather or not this is aggreeable by the staff is a diffrent matter, but I see it as a chance that people are merely rewarded for their RPing, instead of RPing to then gain two weeks loads of TP.
That`s great and all, but I don`t see why you can`t simply modify the TP system accordingly. Also, a EXP system has some flaws. Regardless of the quality of the work, one will gain EXP. Even if you write trash, you can just keep writing trash until you reach the neccesarry amount of EXP to earn a level up. Unlike in a TP system, you are not required to meet a certain writing criteria in order to get the set prize beacuse there is not one set. You will simply get as much as you earn according to the staff member evaluating it.
Plus, the weekly training scheme isn`t a bad thing since it keeps up activity. Those who put only minimal work won`t get to the top anyway.
Lastly, personal roleplays are just that...personaly roleplays. They are not ment to be rewarded (unless staff deems it worthy of a reward). It is writing exlusivly for your enjoyment.
Quote:This making sense, or am I rambling?
Makes sense to me. I`m pleasantly suprised that you involve yourself into this discussion and provide such great contribution.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Reijin - 11-06-2007
In Aqua's scenario, what happens is a case of Diminishing Returns. The staff cannot give a constant amount of gain till infinity happens. To do so means that if someone wants, they can in the first week have a character 10 times stronger than everyone else to the point of a similar massive imbalance to what we currently face. Even in Warcraft they instituted "Daily Quests" with a 10 per day limit so that people out of school aren't just doing them 24/7 for a month and ending up with over a billion gold to either flood the market or even to just sit on. That was just a familiar example though.
Its a common thing though. People build up tolerance to poisons so that where one guy randomly dies from a poison another guy has no issue with it. A kid in 5th grade can turn in a written essay to his teacher about religious philosophy and the teacher will be floored and given a 150 for a grade; I could go to the same teacher and walk out with an 80 because better is expected of me.
That's not saying dumb things down, but is just how the world works.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Aqua - 11-06-2007
Reijin Wrote:In Aqua's scenario, what happens is a case of Diminishing Returns. The staff cannot give a constant amount of gain till infinity happens. To do so means that if someone wants, they can in the first week have a character 10 times stronger than everyone else to the point of a similar massive imbalance to what we currently face. Even in Warcraft they instituted "Daily Quests" with a 10 per day limit so that people out of school aren't just doing them 24/7 for a month and ending up with over a billion gold to either flood the market or even to just sit on. That was just a familiar example though.
Its a common thing though. People build up tolerance to poisons so that where one guy randomly dies from a poison another guy has no issue with it. A kid in 5th grade can turn in a written essay to his teacher about religious philosophy and the teacher will be floored and given a 150 for a grade; I could go to the same teacher and walk out with an 80 because better is expected of me.
That's not saying dumb things down, but is just how the world works.
So, in your example, some guy comes in and manages to get stronger than everyone else because he marathon posts. Tell me why it is, exactly, that's a travesty. If he has, in a short time, wrote more at a higher quality than everyone else, why shouldn't he have a stronger character? He's done more work, he's put in more time, so shouldn't he have more rewards? I think so, so long as everyone is held to the same standard.
Your example is like this: Two kids are going to try out for basketball. They are about equal in skill in the off season, but one kid has more free time than the other so he spends all his off time practicing. When tryouts come, the kid who spent his abundance of free time practicing would be better than the kid with less free time. This just makes sense.
The only people who oppose a quantity / quality balanced grading system are those who want to stay competitive with as little time investment as possible. That just doesn't do justice to the gamers who dump hours into their writing.
In no way does a thread that has 10,000 more words deserve just a couple more TP than a thread of comparable quality and 10,000 words less. That's what we have now, a finite ceiling on rewards (or in the very least a ridiculous bell curve). If I write 25,000 words in the current Dissolute quest and Para writes 10,000. I MIGHT get an extra TP or two tops... that just isn't proportionate. This is a game. If you want some transcendental writer's guild where the gamers don't want rewards proportional to their effort, do as Jackie said and strip the game of stats.
It's bumblefuck ridiculous to give the same reward to two threads of equal quality regardless of disproportionate length. Quality AND length MUST be accounted for if fairness is to exist. Not just length, not just quality. BOTH. I cannot adequately express my frustration when I spend several hours more on a thread that's far greater in length than another RPer, but we get similar boosts because "the quality was about the same."
This is a game, it makes sense to reward on some tangible sense of "work." The quality of someone's work is an entirely subjective judgment, at least if you include a recognition of quantity there is some objectiveness to rewards. I understand there will always be some level of subjectivity because everyone here (myself included) wants quality noted, and so subjectivity is inevitable. But to disregard length entirely, or to toss a couple TP at a few extra thousand words is not a solid way of doing things.
It's utterly frustrating now to go for a quest reward and have only the vaguest idea of what is expected of me to get said reward. "Well if we gave a word count, then people would just do the minimum." No. False. Wrong. If you make the minimum unit of measurement a combination of length and quality, they must, in the very least, write well at a given amount of length. They can't just type random words. If they write poorly, it would require greater length to acquire said unit of measurement. Beyond that, people ALREADY do as little as possible to get the reward. If staff did not recognize this, the rewards for different quests would not be posted before the quest takes place. We already have certain expectations for certain reward levels in relation to length. When someone is questing for a reward, I have never once seen "Revise 'this' post, and you get your reward." No! It's "One more post" or something similar. That's an emphasis on LENGTH, like it or not. It seems odd that we would use length for minimum requirements (to an extent) but we refuse to reward it proportionately for those who go above and beyond. The message sent is this: "We aren't going to tell you what the exact minimum requirement in length is, but we have a general idea of what is expected. And you are more than welcome to go above and beyond but it really isn't going to benefit your character much. But hey, your focus should be on the writing anyway!"
I'm not saying you have to weigh quality and quantity equally, as we do on Zensou. I'm just saying that length is not adequately accounted for in the current system. As it stands, TPs represent a unit of quality and longevity on the board. All I'm suggesting is that whatever unit we use to boost character power adequately acknowledges length as well.
This thread asked for suggestions to improve the site and its activity. You want to encourage people to write more? Give them some incentive to do just that, write more. And, in that increase of output, I'd argue that people ought improve in quality and character development as well.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Raditzu - 11-06-2007
What's a "bumblefuck"?
IMPORTANT: Content? - Raditzu - 11-06-2007
Right, forgot to mention: if you don't like a suggestion, don't waste your time arguing about it.
Like I said previously, this is a place to say what's on your "wish list" for Chubbs. Not a place for saying someone else is wishing for something stupid. You have opinions, you're entitled to them, but I don't want to read through a bunch of bitching and moaning in the hopes of finding something remotely credibly.
This is being said pro-actively, in the hopes of stopping such a situation from occurring. No one has actually been annoying.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Aqua - 11-06-2007
Raditzu Wrote:What's a "bumblefuck"?
![[Image: bumble1.jpg]](http://ericboggs.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/bumble1.jpg)
IMPORTANT: Content? - Reijin - 11-07-2007
I just got smashed in the face by what I'm assuming was a "You are an idiot" type post. I don't know, I don't really have time to read through it. I simply made a comment and opinion. I don't feel like arguing till I'm blue in the face about why three people should not be massively more powerful than the rest of the entire RPG's balance just to go with the fact that they have absolutely nothing else to do with their time.
IMPORTANT: Content? - Aqua - 11-07-2007
Read my post and try to absorb it rather than assuming you know what it says and who is saying it.
If someone puts in more work, they deserve more reward. If a person has more time on their hands, and they choose to spend it on Chubbs, then they should get rewarded for their effort. If you want more activity, reward activity. It seems pretty basic to me.
I've offered a more comprehensive rebuttal to your comments in my previous post, which I'm certain most people, like yourself, won't take the time to read and digest... but what ever. I don't know what I expected, "Wow Roo, what logical and well thought out points you've made. I totally didn't even step outside of myself to think of things that way. But what do you mean when you say 'X'" As if...
IMPORTANT: Content? - Burter - 11-08-2007
Aqua, we've already been through almost a year's worth of arguing over this whole XP thing, so just stop. I can speak for all the staffers when I say we really don't want to sit through another debate about XP and Quality over Quantity. I CAN say that we have a compromise that I think you'll like.
This isn't a place to discuss what's better or worse, but rather to just say what YOU want to see.
Just stop responding to other people. The staff will discuss the details, using the suggestions here. Just let us know what you in particular would like to see and leave it. I hold your opinion in pretty high regard so I'd love to hear it, I just don't want to argue it. Hope you understand.