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+--- Thread: Removal of Combat Ability (/showthread.php?tid=16107)
Removal of Combat Ability - Vad - 12-25-2010
I've re-read Retribution, Medical Mishap, and Retribution II at least 10 times each.
Removal of Combat Ability - Kaden - 12-25-2010
Rose Wrote:How about make it so that - perhaps with a bit of free license when you're new to the RPG - you can't request feedback/a reward unless you yourself have given feedback.
Or even give monthly awards (a link to DA CHEIVES?!) for the best feedbackers.
That's definitely something to consider as a solution. I like the idea of rewarding people for actively giving feedback/grading threads.
Jarka Wrote:What CA essentially is is a leaderboard. You can see just how much you have written compared to other, older members on the site. You can set goals for yourself - Today I'm going to post an entry long enough to beat <user_name>'s CA! Sure, you might be discouraged on a macro level - nobody looks at Vic's score and is, like, "Totally gonna get that in a week." However, it can be extremely motivating on a micro level as you claw your way up the page rankings one post at a time. As soon as I'd post, I'd run over to check just how I did on CA.
...
So, yeah, you kill CA and you lose a new(ish) member, which seems to be what you're trying to avoid. Interesting.
So you basically used CA as Gamerscore. A number attached to your account that had little-to-no bearing on your other gaming activities.
Would the inclusion of other meta-game mechanics (which is what Gamerscore is) keep your interest? I'm talking about things like Achievements or, as Sigfried called them, static-world events? Or is it actually the number, a direct comparison to other accounts, what was doing it for you?
Jonathan Meer Wrote:I understand the pessimism Mario; maybe I'm too hopeful.
As Rose is pushing, though, I'm certain there's a way to make it work. Perhaps some sort of system where a thread may not be submitted for review unless the individual is actively providing feedback herself. And not meager feedback either, but something substantial: something that makes it clear the individual actually has read the work of others, and is intelligently suggesting a sufficient reward.
Put another way, if people don't want to bother reading their peers' work and making sure they're duly rewarded, fuck 'em. I, for one, would bother, and would bother often.
I really wish it were just pessimism talking. I honestly do. I'm always willing to give people a chance to surprise me, but it rarely works out favorably. The couple of examples that come right off the top of my head are any of the numerous C&C threads we have here or the grading system on AD or even some of the quest judging here. It's a great system on paper and it doesn't feel like asking people very much of people, but... there you have it.
Like I said though, I'm always willing to give people a chance to surprise me. However, asking people to include a thoughtful -- or even relevant, in some cases -- feedback along with their grading of a thread sounds like too much. Honestly, I'd be ok with something as simple as "good read, I'd give it 15 XP."... Ok... that might be pessimism.
Removal of Combat Ability - Super Buu - 12-25-2010
Kaden Wrote:I really wish it were just pessimism talking. I honestly do. I'm always willing to give people a chance to surprise me, but it rarely works out favorably. The couple of examples that come right off the top of my head are any of the numerous C&C threads we have here or the grading system on AD or even some of the quest judging here. It's a great system on paper and it doesn't feel like asking people very much of people, but... there you have it.
Not to derail, and PM me if you want to avoid cluttering the thread, but I'm curious. What about AD's grading system didn't work? Things weren't always graded within a week, but everything did get graded whilst the site was still active.
I can see a lot of potential reasons to dislike it, like it's nowhere near as quick as auto-XP, but it was 'working as intended'.
Removal of Combat Ability - Tyr - 12-25-2010
Jonathan Meer Wrote:Most writers re-read what they write repeatedly.
Vad Wrote:I've re-read Retribution, Medical Mishap, and Retribution II at least 10 times each.Yeah I know people often reflect upon their work which is why I used "me" as an example. I simply dislike reading at the end of a post through because it reminds me of school w0rk and honestly it could easily be something I improve on on a personal level, all the more reason to support your idea.
I don't like to watch my own games either, hence why I forever will not be a pro @ SC/WC3/any game with a replay system. >_>
Removal of Combat Ability - Kaden - 12-25-2010
Rose Wrote:Not to derail, and PM me if you want to avoid cluttering the thread, but I'm curious. What about AD's grading system didn't work? Things weren't always graded within a week, but everything did get graded whilst the site was still active.
It's entirely possible that I'm just remembering it incorrectly. The system was very sound on paper, but in execution it felt slow and labored when it came to getting people to actually get things graded, and that was with staff members who's only job, ostensibly, was to do the grading.
The small delays can be huge detractors. Think about the last time you went to have something graded and it too "too long." Its easy to lose interest in what your storyline was or what your character was doing and then, before you know it, it's a couple months later and, despite the fact that your grading was done, you don't feel that spark to keep writing. And, of course, I'm not speaking to Rose directly, but to everyone in general.
Having said the above, I understand and acknowledge that no system is, or ever will be, perfect. Everything has flaws. What we need to do is look at the current RPG and community and decide what flaws and strengths compliment the writers most effectively. A lot of the current system, for example, was predicated upon each writer having the ability to customize their character to a great degree, having a unique take on something that may seem very mundane (ie Trafford using drugs as a power-up, or Kaden's use of Ki Sense). That was the big focus at the time of the system's conception. Was that the best way to go? Maybe, maybe not, but it's important to think about what system would make the best of what we have, not what system would be perfect.
Personally, I consider general laziness and narcissism the biggest weaknesses of the community as a whole. Doing extra work to get something hasn't gone particularly well (again, I point to Professions and C&C threads) but players are generally very invested in their own characters. Things that acknowledge specific characters have usually gone over really well (remember those end-of-round DA awards?) and once someone's character develops a vested interest in someone else's character, they generally start to become excited about things that promote the other person (though the cynic in me says it's because they are being promoted by association).
Now I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to be mean or to bash people or anything like that. I am absolutely not exempt from anything stated above. Additionally, I can't say my perspective isn't skewed (it's very difficult for me to shift out of "staff" mode while on the forums) to the point that maybe I'm seeing things differently than they actually are. I'm sharing this because I think it's important to point out some of the things that I, knowing my voice usually carries a lot of weight when dealing with development decisions of this nature, keep in the back of my mind.
This thread has turned into much more of a meeting-of-the-minds than anyone had probably intended, but I think it's awesome and I'm trying to be as up-front about things as I can be.
Removal of Combat Ability - Rem-13 - 12-26-2010
Random thought: It might be useful to create a thread and ask everyone on the forum to state what exactly they want or expect out of the site. I just want to chill and (in times of rare motivation) post a story about some cool idea I had. The more dogma in place the less I want to write (I'm not casting judgment on the current situation, it is suitably freeform) but I know some people may want more structure to make it less like a creative writing endeavor and more like an actual RPG.
Removal of Combat Ability - Jarka - 12-26-2010
This is my prototype for a system change. It's really long, there's a TLDR at the bottom. Sorry for the book, I hate discussing mechanic changes without looking at the system as whole. Of course, it's not perfect as I only really fleshed it out mentally last night, but here goes.
My prototype is such (of course, credit goes to anybody who has mentioned similar ideas, but I'm not going to clutter this with parenthetical citations anymore):
1. Canon characters are brought back - but as NPCs. Not many people seem to complain about not playing as Thrall in WOW, they're just glad to be able to interact with him. As has been mentioned in most discussions about canon, this will keep the draw of DBZ without newbies being disappointed by Goku being claimed already.
2. Writers are not allowed to be, like, "THIS IS MY NEW CHARACTER HENRY; HE'S VEGETA'S BFF." The bigger canon characters are kept as higher ups in the universe. Writers can discuss them, show them in snippets on the news, have them be grand marshal at a parade, but new characters cannot directly interact with the biggies.
3. As a result, the worlds are CONSIDERABLY more fleshed out. I get the whole "give writers freedom" mentality. That's great. But having concrete structure to the universe gives writers a greater point of inspiration. Also, it helps newbies out. Piper was consistently pestered by me the first week as I kept asking questions about the state of the world, despite the answer usually being "It's up to the writer." Giving a person too much choice can be overwhelming.
4. Better updating on universal world events. Something like Central City being half destroyed in a saga should be required to be put in a news post if it's going to become world canon. Again, this can just help give writers a burst to get through writers block - a stagnant character might be motivated by worrying if their sister did in an attack on their home city. Non-staff saga rewards and events that unfold later on should require a staff A-OK, of course.
5. A new Reputation point system is created. As the characters gain reputation, they gain the ability to interact with more influential NPCs (probably divided into tiers to make like SOMEWHAT easy on the staff). Characters in the top tier of influence would have considerable freedom with how to use the big canon characters due to the fact that they would have considerable pull in the universe.
6. Consequently, a new questing system is introduced. NPCs (written by the staff) offer quests to be taken up by characters. After the completion of the quest (can be taken and completed in a personal storyline, as before), a reward is granted. For lower tier quests, NPCs would reward zeni and, for outstanding performance, reputation points. As the character gained reputation, they would gain access to a new tier of quests offered by more influential NPCs. The highest tier quests from Goku/Vegeta/famous people would require ridiculous effort, but the reward may be considerably ridiculous as well (the quest giver now owes you a favor - you can use them in a personal storyline, you are granted a universal title of nobility, etc.). Lower level quests might be "Deliver this package!" whereas high tier might be "Overthrow this government!".
7. Saga winners can be granted reputation as well. Just sayin'.
8. Jobs can be kept for zeni farming and an independent goal for those who use them (what kind of DBZ website doesn't have a cook, after all :p). As a writer moves from one job tier to the next, they earn a handful of reputation points (a percentage of which is lost if they change jobs)
9. Achievements are implemented just as a personal motivation for writers. Nothing hugely game-changing in there, but little motivations are awesome. Piper's list is incredible. Writers can also suggest new achievements for staff approval. Achievements would add in points to Writerscore - similar to gamerscore, but with writers. A forum for approval would be needed (like current quests/jobs).
10. A greater reviewing system would be implemented to encourage peer involvement. Similar to what's been already been mentioned without huge game changing effects. The rewards might be access to formerly restricted forums or something. A good critique, by the way, is at least one specific area of improvement/con and one specific thing they did well/pro. None of that generic "I liked it" shit. Each successful critique would merit Community Points, which would reward access to different areas of the forums or the ability to post new threads on OOC or whatever (this might mean a temporary lock out of some popular forums while people build up their CP, and as a result, some dissent at first, but popular forum access would probably be, like, 2 CP). Bad critiques could mean CP would be lost. CP would be degenerate over time.
11. Community Points could also be granted for helpful involvement in site issues. For instance, people who put forth great effort in this thread (even if their ideas were not used) could be granted CP from staff. Perhaps staff could also (very, very rarely) grant character rewards for extensive effort in CP.
12. Powerups would all be reset due to, like, a quantum pulse across the universe or something (XP refunded). All powerups are now granted by staff as a reward for good writing or saga involvement or whatnot. Writers could privately nominate a peer for a job well done in personal storylines.
13. Power level - this would be a crazy mishmash. I only just thought of it, so it's pretty rough as I haven't stewed it over like a good designer. PL would be introduced. Word count could increase your PL up to, like, 2000 (at about the increase rate of CA). Each time a powerup was granted by staff, the character would also get a boost to their PL. PL bonuses could be rewards for sagas or quests as well. In addition, a percentage (maybe, like, a quarter) of the PL could be influenced by the Writerscore, Reputation, etc. As a result, only the most involved members increase their power level, and it can't just be done by spam writing - you have to be rewarded for good effort and community involvement as well.
14. There is a leaderboard page. It is divided into sections:
[INDENT]1: Reputation - 10 highest reputation characters[/INDENT]
[INDENT]2: Writerscore - 10 highest achievement earners[/INDENT]
[INDENT]3: Community - 10 "most involved" community members[/INDENT]
[INDENT]4: Spam Writers - 10 highest word counts (formerly CA-ish)[/INDENT]
[INDENT]5: Power - 10 most powerful, based on power level[/INDENT]
[INDENT]6: Et cetera[/INDENT]
Clicking on a section would take the user to the full list for that section so they could see where they stand overall. More sections gives people more options for personal motivation - maybe somebody doesn't give a shit about reputation, but loves community involvement and wants to be number 1.
15. Of course, to handle this, new staff members would probably be needed (at least for the initial switch). Maybe designate one for each section - reputation, writerscore, community, general website, etc. Staff neglecting their duties could be replaced quicker that way. I'm not sure if that's how it's done now, so it's just a suggestion.
16. Numbers are fun!
Again, this isn't perfect, but this is the gist of what I think would be an awesome revamp. *shrug* Really, there's only a couple of changes and a lot of fleshing out. As mentioned before, now's the time to do it with most people on break from school.
Quote:TLDR: Bring in canon NPCs, achievements, and a couple of ways to earn points on the website, and sum it all up on a leaderboard page.
Removal of Combat Ability - Jarka - 12-26-2010
Kaden Wrote:So you basically used CA as Gamerscore. A number attached to your account that had little-to-no bearing on your other gaming activities.
Would the inclusion of other meta-game mechanics (which is what Gamerscore is) keep your interest? I'm talking about things like Achievements or, as Sigfried called them, static-world events? Or is it actually the number, a direct comparison to other accounts, what was doing it for you?
Well, I posted my proposed changes before actually reading Sig's detailed deal, so now I look like a copycat (which is actually humorous, as I almost mentioned in my spiel that Sigfried would probably agree with me as he and I tend to agree on general mechanics and just nitpick over fine tuning). I actually really like his RPP (with the 0 for sucky critiques and 4 for awesome ones) as part of my community system. Also, I stand by his point that the good GMs flesh out a world around them, which I mentioned in mine as well.
So the answer to your question is yes, as I showed in my previous post.
Removal of Combat Ability - Vad - 12-26-2010
While I agree the world isn't as fleshed out as it could be. I do believe that it's completely operator error if people don't look and obtain the information about the world that IS posted.
My Central City disaster has a news post. I don't know if you were using that as an example or what, but I thought I'd mention that.
In that same regard. Me and Sage blew up a Frost embassy. That wasn't documented. Viper is ripping apart Ja City on Namek and well...we'll document that after XD
I sit down and think about this and I really don't have any ideas. I didn't have a problem with the system. I was writing because Vad & Trixie are simply amazing. In the end whatever system gets implemented I'll be happy with.
At this point with this much activity spurred over this thread I really don't see a reset NOT happening. I better start retconning my posts if I want to fix all the flaws I made in 09 lol
Removal of Combat Ability - Tamsin - 12-26-2010
Vad, with no disrespect, but....would you really be happy if things changed? You expressed discontent regarding changes before, in this very thread. I hope you do not misunderstand this, but considering what Kaden mentioned (that you didn't express any objections before), I get the impression that you are reluctant to speak your mind. If there is something troubling you, you should freely say so.
This applies to everyone. This isn't the time to be holding back. A system is only good if the community that uses it is (at least for the most part) satisfied with it. With activity at rock bottom levels, it is now more important than ever before that you share your thoughts and concerns. Only that way can we devise a system that will be the most satisfactory. If you don't speak now and end up being displeased with the changes, then this entire discussion is for nought.
Anyway, that is all for now. I am going to express my own opinion a bit later, since what I have to say is somewhat extensive and it is going to take a while for me to write.
Removal of Combat Ability - Vad - 12-27-2010
Tamsin Wrote:Vad, with no disrespect, but....would you really be happy if things changed? You expressed discontent regarding changes before, in this very thread. I hope you do not misunderstand this, but considering what Kaden mentioned (that you didn't express any objections before), I get the impression that you are reluctant to speak your mind. If there is something troubling you, you should freely say so.
No, I wouldn't. And I don't know why. Maybe fear?
To be honest I'm lost in this discussion. When I query my mind for an opinion I get nothing. It's just saddening to me. This whole thing, and as before I don't know why.
Removal of Combat Ability - Mr. Zhu - 12-27-2010
Rem-13 Wrote:I just want to chill and (in times of rare motivation) post a story about some cool idea I had.
I feel the same way. Writing now, is just so much different than when I was younger and roleplaying. It was exciting back in the old days of Chubbs, and it was exciting to see all the interaction and alliances being thrown around. But now, I feel too literally aged to be excited about climbing to the top of the charts in power or conquering the world, while the suggestion is pretty awesome.
I don't know. I'm just rambling now. It just feels like I lost that part in me when I would be excited to keep track of the new posts and read up on everything because I so desperately wanted to, I guess, build my own legacy in the site. Whereas now, I'm more looking to write leisurely and just have fun with it, while receiving feedback from other people and just generally improve my writing skills in an environment I've grown accustomed to liking and being part of.
Trafford mentioned something that connected with me earlier,
Quote:But there just isn't enough new blood out there anymore, there aren't 16 year olds old there who are in love with DBZ and want to write on an online forum about it. Interest has dried up. All we have left is the members that we have, and we have to excite them into writing more. But now we're all older, we have jobs and college and girlfriends and responsibilities and its hard to find the time or the old excitement anymore.
In reference to getting new and active members, I completely agree with Trafford's view point, but I would like to expand on it. There aren't anymore 16 year olds who are in love with DBZ and want to write on an online forum, and even if there were, would we really take them in if they're new to writing? It's not the matter of fanbase and demographics, it's that our demographic as an active Writing/RPing population has been steadily diminishing. With veterans leaving the game because they have other things in life they want to worry about, but not enough new people that are generally and genuinely interested in writing to make up for the deficit.
This trend is exceptionally applicable to Chubbs, because of the fact that we are such an "Elitism" oriented group. Not to mean it in a bad way, but when I first joined Chubbs, it really took me a several times to get through the RP threshold of "satisfactory" to join Chubbs. For a long time in Chubbs, I was damned intimidated to post because I thought I wasn't good enough to compare with everyone else. Eventually I got past it because of the friendly members on here and people guiding me through everything, but it was still scary to post back then. Note that I was really young to RPing and Writing in general when I first joined.
And of course, I'm sure you guys generally don't want to lower the threshold or "dumb things down." But with the diminishing interest in experienced writers, and the general newer writers too damned intimidated by us, I just think the standard of acceptance is high considering the modern demographics of Writing and RPing in general. It is just too hard for us to attract active writers (who are usually just getting into the game and really willing) when we have such a high expectation of where their writing abilities should already be. To sum it up, the only people we accept are people who are already seasoned and not as motivated as say, a newbie would be. So no matter how many more of these seasoned writers we rake in, activity would still be lazy.
ANYWAYS, I'm good with whatever change that's implemented, and I really don't have a stance on whether it's a good move removing CA. Chubbs has been my home, and it will continue to be even if the roleplaying completely depletes, I'll still be here OOC, consistently.
Edit:
Also, I disagree with Jarka's 10 and 11. While community points may be cool, but it shouldn't determine whether or not people can partake in more popular forums. Forums like, The Legendary Aslyum and RPG Discussion. What if there was a large game changing discussion in RPG discussion or a Saga, and people didn't have access to the forum because they lacked community involvement? This forms a catch 22, because who would want to get involved if they don't even know the fucking community? For me at least, it was much more comforting to write here after I've talked to a lot of the people in Chubbs, before I summed up the courage to write when I was relatively new to writing.
I've always thought The Asylum was the best thing about Chubbs, it shows that behind these characters and all the writing are real people who are down to communicate, and it makes what Chubbs is truly attractive to me. A tight-knit community where I could just come here, fool around and laugh. If you took that from me because of Community Points, I wouldn't even bother.
Removal of Combat Ability - Belle Hibiki - 12-27-2010
As long as we're being honest.
I'd have to see more of it to judge the idea more completely, but the first time I read 'achievements,' I grimaced IRL. I can't see an arbitrary set of merit badges, the concept of which was designed for video games, translating well to an online writing format.
Removal of Combat Ability - Kaden - 12-27-2010
It would be awesome if everyone can be honest in these discussions. If there's something you don't like, you should absolutely say so. If you don't have a real reason for liking something and it's just your gut reaction, then feel free to say it. A lot of what has made Chubbs successful over the years is that we've just gone with things that "feel right."
We can theorycraft until the cows come home, but at the end of the day if you just don't like something, you don't like something.
Removal of Combat Ability - Kaden - 12-27-2010
It would be awesome if everyone can be honest in these discussions. If there's something you don't like, you should absolutely say so. If you don't have a real reason for liking something and it's just your gut reaction, then feel free to say it. A lot of what has made Chubbs successful over the years is that we've just gone with things that "feel right."
We can theorycraft until the cows come home, but at the end of the day if you just don't like something, you don't like something.
Removal of Combat Ability - Jonathan Meer - 12-27-2010
Ok.
Achievements make me feel icky too.
EDIT: Which, that being said, if they were implemented, I'd probably go after 'em. =D
Removal of Combat Ability - Dehan - 12-27-2010
I like the idea of achievements, along with alliances it would most definitely make some healthy competition between players who want to get an achievement first.
As far as there not being teens who enjoy dbz rping out and about; I know they're out there. They just don't know how to go about searching for a good place to rp outside of IRC servers or other places, and these days more are into Bleach and Naruto more than DBZ.
Also if canons are brought back let them be selected, give people who last played them first dibs on how they're used or if they're played with. Yeah yeah yeah yeah YEAH...I know there are many past characters who have been established, fleshed out and played with etc; so again let them choose what occurs. If they killed off that character, than let that character remain deceased etc.
Keep customs and bring canons back.
As far as basing CA around the quality of writing...I've had so many off days on posts I have literally slapped myself. People have off days...or weeks...or months until they slip back into their old niche. That's all I can think of right now.
Removal of Combat Ability - Jonathan Meer - 12-27-2010
Sure. Off months = lower CA.
EDIT: I really do think canons should be brought back, though customs can be kept for those persons who prefer to keep them. I can't think of a better way to 'hook' new players than having canons struttin' around.
And, again, I really really really want Krill krill back.
Removal of Combat Ability - Vad - 12-27-2010
What about those of us who don't want our canon, but don't want them being used? Toma plays a huge role in Vad's story. As does Luna, who is an NPC, but she's directly linked to Toma.
Removal of Combat Ability - Jonathan Meer - 12-27-2010
Well
damn. That does suck. Cantcha just do the re-name thing? I know it'd be a bit icky, but it IS a fix.
EDIT: Or you could just say that no one can join as Toma. I think your storyline is a bit unique in that it relies so heavily upon a past canon, but in this case, Toma is extremely minor (as a potentially joinable canon). The only real reason new peeps wanted to join as him back in the day was because he could go SSJ, but now with customs, that becomes irrelevant.
Which is to say, Goku and Piccolo are hooks, not Toma.