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Content - Super Buu - 01-27-2007
This was originally going to be a suggestion, but I decided to put it here so I could make it a general discussion. Feel free to throw your opinions here.
Personally, I don't like the increasing trend that's happening on Chubbs for 'content'. A prime example of content is King Kai's quests. In order to get Kaioken and Spirit Bomb, you can't just train for them - you've got to do these quests. Now, what's wrong with that, you ask? Nothing - I actually think it adds a lot of flavour and background to those techniques. Other examples are the Body Split training, and Lord Vine teaching Metal Binding.
The problem is, as the RPG gets bigger, it seems like we need to add more content. It's worked in the past - how could more content possibly be a bad thing? The problem is the limitations it can impose.
Guilds is where I think this started to go too far. The premise of guilds were that you could gain extra exp doing what you were already doing. So basically, there was no advantage to not be in a guild. But what if you don't like the current selection? What if you want to make your own guild, or would rather be freelance and not in a guild at all? Tough shit.
KR took this to the next level with senseis. All techniques require you to train under a sensei. That's great if you want to do that, but what if I want to do a personal saga on Earth for a technique instead? For the moment, the only way to get these is to train under a sensei.
The problem is, as these things get more in-depth and specific, there's less room for innovation and creativity on the writer's part. I think it's okay for the occasional technique to have special training requirements, or 'handicaps', detailing where you have to train and with who, but I think the majority of techniques should be up to the writer how to train. I like to be able to create my own content, not use someone else's.
It's like I said about a year ago, and I remember Broli saying the same thing. I find writing to be more fun than MMORPG-ing when it comes to RPing, because when you're playing a game there are all these rules there. When I'm writing, I can do whatever the hell I want. I love it.
A good example of how this is done well is Spiritken. There's a pre-written description for those who want to use staff's - the green aura. But if you want, you're allowed to change it. The only limitation, if you can call it that, is how big the multiplier is. The rest is up to you.
Whilst I appreciate the time staff put into it, it kind of means that only staff get to be creative with senseis and training, and I'm not here to let my story be written by someone else.
Am I the only one that finds this new stuff a bit stifling/uncomfortable? Discussion open!
Content - Ashe - 01-27-2007
The Sensei system was not intended to be a "you can only get the techs here" thing. Its an additional way to get techs. I'm not seeing why you assume we strapped limitations to it like that. Its made to broaden the ability to earn them.
The problem is that we had been trying to finalize the costs of these techs, both with training with Sensei, and with doing it on your own, and then we lost all of it due to Dana. Afterwards, we ended up doing this whole "reset that isn't really a reset" thing, which is where most of it is thrown out at anyways.
Content - Kaden - 01-27-2007
Quote:Originally posted by Super Buu
Whilst I appreciate the time staff put into it, it kind of means that only staff get to be creative with senseis and training, and I'm not here to let my story be written by someone else.
This is being said under the assumption that the only way to train for a sensei tech is to train with a sensei. Which is false. Here's exactly how the development process for sensei went:
-We make a list of techniques to be saga only (most of them were kak's, btw)
-After giving out a couple of those we say "hey, those are really cool"
-We discuss how people might want them from not sagas
-The idea of sensei comes up
-We give players the ability to train for those "saga-only" techs from sensei
-You complain
There are two limitations to training with a sensei:
1) You have to actually go find them
2) We've pre-described their personalities
That leaves you free to decide how you train, who you train with, when you train, what IC elements you decide to incorporate, what plot devices you want to use, how you want to have you character actually learn the tech, in what ways your character will use said tech, etc., etc., etc..
If you don't like training with a sensei, then don't. Join a saga and get it the way you're supposed to get one of them. If you don't want to go to KR to get shapeshifting, go back to Earth.
The only thing we've done is give you another option. That's all. Its not mandatory, its not required, and its not the only way of getting things done.
Quote:Originally posted by Super Buu
It's like I said about a year ago, and I remember Broli saying the same thing. I find writing to be more fun than MMORPG-ing when it comes to RPing, because when you're playing a game there are all these rules there. When I'm writing, I can do whatever the hell I want. I love it.
You're equating having to train with a specific NPC for a specific tech (a system that's been around the RPG since its conception) to not having fun on Chubbs. We all like writing here. That's why we write. There are more aspects of the game than that, though. Stats infringe upon the freedom of writing and, conversly, writing infriges upon the structure of stats. You just have to live with it like we all do.
Content - Super Buu - 01-27-2007
Quote:Originally posted by RaditzuAye, and the problem I'm describing is that the content is getting more and more specific. Back in the day, you were just told this guy is 'Lord Vine' or 'Charango', and that they were 'really really strong'. For the rest of it, you could pretty much make up their entire personality. Whereas the sensei's personalities are very clearly lined out. Usually a technique is held by only one or two masters, which doesn't leave you with a great deal of choice (assuming you even fulfil the requirements of all of those sensei with the tech you want).
That leaves you free to decide how you train, who you train with, when you train, what IC elements you decide to incorporate, what plot devices you want to use, how you want to have you character actually learn the tech, in what ways your character will use said tech, etc., etc., etc..
My opinion is that I like the added flavour for a few techs (as with the shapechanging school, Metal Binding etc) - it makes those techs special. But when every technique can be learned from senseis, not only are the 'special' techs no longer special, but you're going to be spending a lot of time doing training with limitations staff has decided upon.
What I'm basically saying is that I think you should be careful adding more content, because it removes something the player would otherwise have had to/been able to think up for themselves. I would have preferred, instead of the sensei thing, saying that people can simply train for these techs. It allows total freedom, and I don't see any downsides next to sensei.
Content - Kaden - 01-27-2007
You want NPCs anyone can craft any way they want whenever they RP with them, but then you get people saying "but that's not the way Lord Vine should be acting."
This is all pretty moot because it'll really stop being a problem.
Content - Super Buu - 01-27-2007
Quote:Originally posted by RaditzuAwesome. I just wanted to throw my opinions out there, and see if anyone else wanted to (obviously not >_>) so staff could have a better idea of what the members want.
This is all pretty moot because it'll really stop being a problem.
Content - Mal Nova - 01-28-2007
Personally, I like staffs idea.
It's kind of fucked up and stupid to have one Rper RP King Kai as a nice hapy going guy abd abnither rp him depressed and another rp him a pot head and another rp him as a bad guy. They are 'saga only' techs.
Saga only.
That means they gave you a way to train for it.
Personally, unless it something i desire at that time for Retane.... I'll wait till Staff give it to me. Fuck, if they reward me with something higher then what i want i'd honestly ask them to downgrade it to that tech.
I mean I look at it like this, we are writing chronicles of our characters within a huge realm. They need to coincide and make sense you know.
Content - Ashe - 01-28-2007
To me, if you plan on having a world, you have to have some degree of consistancy to it. For example... Alot of why I haven't trained with Vine is because others have, and I didn't know what to do with the character as far as personality after that. Had I been first, he could be lounging in a chair drinking a white chocolate mocha in whitey tighties, but who knows if that works after stuff has been established.
Content - Ander - 01-28-2007
As with anything, you got the people who will be happy, and the people who will be like 'wtf die!!!!'
It's all perception.
Content - Super Buu - 01-28-2007
Quote:Originally posted by RetaneThat seems to me to be a reason to let people just make up their own senseis and train. I know I personally would rather do that than use an NPC someone else made up, but that's just me.
Personally, I like staffs idea.
It's kind of fucked up and stupid to have one Rper RP King Kai as a nice hapy going guy abd abnither rp him depressed and another rp him a pot head and another rp him as a bad guy. They are 'saga only' techs.
Saga only.
That means they gave you a way to train for it.
Personally, unless it something i desire at that time for Retane.... I'll wait till Staff give it to me. Fuck, if they reward me with something higher then what i want i'd honestly ask them to downgrade it to that tech.
I mean I look at it like this, we are writing chronicles of our characters within a huge realm. They need to coincide and make sense you know.
Content - Mal Nova - 01-28-2007
Well.... KR...was made by certain peeps. So you dont get to choose. It's them/staff that choose. Whats to say you must rp training there on the planet to acheive it? They could send you to where ever to do whatever in them end you know?
All it takes is a "staff can I do this?"
A good reason of being unqie will get you far if it is decent im sure....
I picked a namek. I had him exhiled from namek. If he is found hes fucked there.... I cant train for whatever really... but if i wanted it im sure i could discuss somethning with staff if it made sense...
Edit: Kajin Rala
Kami Rejin Rad Koola
All were staff at the time. so they sacrificed their wish for you.... Why bitch?
Only a lonely SOB will train in te end....
Content - Super Buu - 01-28-2007
Quote:Originally posted by RetaneThat doesn't seem like good reasoning to me.
Well.... KR...was made by certain peeps. So you dont get to choose. It's them/staff that choose.
Quote:Whats to say you must rp training there on the planet to acheive it?The fact that the senseis are on the planet.
Quote:All it takes is a "staff can I do this?"That's basically what this thread is. I'm asking "can you let people make things up for themselves?"
It actually saves staff effort if we can. Like I said, I appreciate the thought, but I'd still rather invent my own characters than use someone else's.
Content - Jonathan Meer - 01-28-2007
Quote:Originally posted by Super Buu
That seems to me to be a reason to let people just make up their own senseis and train. I know I personally would rather do that than use an NPC someone else made up, but that's just me.
I made up a sensei to learn Telepathy in Heaven. But I assume you want this to stretch to saga-only Techs as well?
You must play Final Fantasy games and be like, "But what if I don't want to blow up the fucking Mako reactor? What then? Why is this fucking game making me blow up the fucking Mako reactor?"
Or, "I want Cloud to actually be cool? Why is he a fucking schoolgirl?"
We're not as restrictive as Final Fantasy.
Content - Super Buu - 01-28-2007
Krillin, come on. That's one of the most ridiculous analogies I've ever heard.
You can't compare writing with playing Final Fantasy. Games already have the story told, you're just going through it ... like reading a book. Is reading a book the same as writing it?
Content - Jonathan Meer - 01-28-2007
I'm referring to the actual gameplay bit of Chubbs, the part you seem so infatuated with. If your focus is truly on the writing of a book, then why are you so stuck on gameplay details?
There has to be a balance of the two. Gameplay brings restrictions. We're doing our best to keep these as loose as possible, while still maintaining the credibility of both parts. The focus should always be upon the writing itself, but for those who come for just the game, we try to provide a structured framework for them as well.
Simply put, if you want the absolute freedom you're talking about, then you can't play Chubbs. Go write a novel. When you joined the site, you knew the restrictions you were putting yourself under. These restrictions are necessary and can not simply be thrown to the winds.
Content - Super Buu - 01-28-2007
Quote:Originally posted by KrillinNo, fella, you've read me wrong. My problem is with the writing aspect, not the gameplay details. I'd rather be given more room for creatvitiy.
I'm referring to the actual gameplay bit of Chubbs, the part you seem so infatuated with. If your focus is truly on the writing of a book, then why are you so stuck on gameplay details?
Quote:There has to be a balance of the two. Gameplay brings restrictions. We're doing our best to keep these as loose as possible, while still maintaining the credibility of both parts. The focus should always be upon the writing itself, but for those who come for just the game, we try to provide a structured framework for them as well.I understand that, but I don't get why that means I have to use these sensei.
Quote:Simply put, if you want the absolute freedom you're talking about, then you can't play Chubbs. Go write a novel. When you joined the site, you knew the restrictions you were putting yourself under. These restrictions are necessary and can not simply be thrown to the winds.I don't think I'm asking for absolute freedom. I'm asking for a little more flexibility. The way I see it, the reason we're all on Chubbs is to RP with other people - to interact with other writers and write a story together. This pattern is to say "staff makes up the stuff, and then you write about it". I don't get why that's necessary. Other gameplay elements within Chubbs certainly are, but that ain't got nothing to do with creativity. Like I said, I don't mind staff making 'flavour' within the world, but y'gotta ease up a bit. Y'know? Give us some room to spread our creative wings for once.
Content - Ashe - 01-28-2007
Quote:Originally posted by Super Buu
I understand that, but I don't get why that means I have to use these sensei.
Quote:Originally posted by Reijin
The Sensei system was not intended to be a "you can only get the techs here" thing. Its an additional way to get techs. I'm not seeing why you assume we strapped limitations to it like that. Its made to broaden the ability to earn them.
Content - Super Buu - 01-28-2007
But if you're gonna make the techs available, why restrict them all as such?
Content - Jonathan Meer - 01-28-2007
Quote:Originally posted by Super Buu
I understand that, but I don't get why that means I have to use these sensei.
As Rad outlined, they were originally only available in sagas. Then we added another possibility. If you don't want to use the sensei, then join the sagas. If you don't feel like doing either, then you can be a Tech-martyr for the cause of super-freedom.
Quote:I don't think I'm asking for absolute freedom. I'm asking for a little more flexibility. The way I see it, the reason we're all on Chubbs is to RP with other people - to interact with other writers and write a story together. This pattern is to say "staff makes up the stuff, and then you write about it". I don't get why that's necessary.
Because otherwise, the writing world of Chubbs would be chaos. Nothing would make sense. There would be no structure. You'd be able to write whatever you wanted, but then, so would everyone else.
Quote:Other gameplay elements within Chubbs certainly are, but that ain't got nothing to do with creativity. Like I said, I don't mind staff making 'flavour' within the world, but y'gotta ease up a bit. Y'know? Give us some room to spread our creative wings for once.
You have all the freedom in the world to spread your creative wings. We give basic outlines for Quests, the senseis, worlds, characters, etc. simply so that things don't become chaotic in regards to how someone roleplays something else. Nearly everything else is totally UP TO YOU.
Again, however, if you truly want to spread your creative wings, then go write a novel. I don't see a reason why the Staff should weaken the gameplay of the site simply so you (and maybe some other members, though I don't see any others speaking up) can do whatever you please. It doesn't work that way. The system's current setting is necessary. Lowering it any further would cause problems. Can you understand this? Do you understand why I'm saying this?
One thing I've noticed in these conversations with you, Greg, is that we'll give reasons for why we do a certain thing, yet you stubbornly push your position in spite of all the reasons, either ignoring them completely, or passing them aside as if they're rubbish.
Content - Ashe - 01-28-2007
Quote:Originally posted by Reijin
Quote:Originally posted by Super Buu
But if you're gonna make the techs available, why restrict them all as such?
Quote:Originally posted by Reijin
The Sensei system was not intended to be a "you can only get the techs here" thing. Its an additional way to get techs. I'm not seeing why you assume we strapped limitations to it like that. Its made to broaden the ability to earn them.