Kaden Wrote:That's actually the official theme for today.

Or it should be.

Rod Hardwood Wrote:separation of church and state was a blurb out of a private letter.

Waffuru Wrote:"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties." - Thomas Jefferson

What they wanted to say was "no national religion shall be established by law, nor shall the equal rights of conscience be infringed." but they were afraid to use the term 'national' because of the nationalists/anti-federalists who would not let the amendment be added if they implied that the Government was a national one.

You can read the whole thing in the Annals of Congress/The Debates and Proceedings in the Congress of the United States.

Not to mention the Supreme Court has upheld separation of church and state numerous times.

What about article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli?

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

learn2amerika?

Rod Hardwood Wrote:separation of church and state was a blurb out of a private letter.

Quote:that it's been used to interpret the US Constitution while the Declaration of Independence (you know, the document outlining the purpose of the revolutionary war, the very same which this holiday revolves around) was dismissed for usage of the same purpose is ridiculous. if you'd actually go back and set a context for Jefferson's letter by using his actions during his presidential terms - regularly using federal buildings for religious purposes, for instance, something that if done today would cause 10,000 athiests' heads to simultaneously explode before you could say "theocracy" - people would come to a very different conclusion about what he meant.

Quote:but no, the most common use of it is to quote it without historical context so that the people who are quick to quote it can shove in their own views, and i've even seen people who think that it's actually a clause of the constitution :/

the actual constitutional passage that the blurb has been so poorly used on is amendment 1, article 1 of the bill of rights: "the congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of the practice thereof." while the prohibition against law respecting an establishment of religion has been upheld, the free practice clause has been thoroughly and repeatedly trashed by judicial activism prompted by an obnoxious minority which hinge on - once again - a blurb from a private letter. if anything the exercise of religion has long been under siege by the zealous secularists, not the other way around

Quote:in short: if you don't like that people choose to vote for what they want when it's their constitutional right to do so then tough shit, stupid. maybe you'd have a better time if you stopped ignorantly parroting ironic talking points