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+--- Thread: Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics (/showthread.php?tid=15005)
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Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Vad - 11-24-2009
I've been bored for the past hour and I began thinking about fight scenarios and writing them to practice. The particular one in the thread title gave birth to a question.
Combat Teleportation involves moving through a wormhole to another location (using real world logic). That's a given. As Ashe once said with the "brick wall" example, you warp to the other side. You don't move, you "teleport."
In that same Example, After Image would run smack into the wall because he/she is only moving at the speed of light (If I remember that thread correctly) and not warping.
Onto my question:
Say someone with After Image and Flight decided to antagonize their opponent by fleeing. Even in a short distance, if the person with After Image and Flight kept moving, wouldn't the Combat Teleportation person need to keep warping, thus slowing them up. This is based on the fact that they couldn't predict if their opponent was going to keep going. They could if they had Foresight.
Essentially, the guy using After Image would just fly in a straight line while the person with Combat Teleportation would need to blip in and out as they realize their opponent had moved.
Right?
Or would they both move at the same speed? Whether it be going in a straight line or using CT repeatedly.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Sage - 11-24-2009
He would have to blip in and out, but he's moving instantaneously. The guy with afterimage is not. The guy with CT would still have the upper hand in the long run, even if he was confused/disoriented by the tactic at first.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Vad - 11-24-2009
So there is no time between blips? Someone with CT could effectively block a fighter from escaping by moving to each direction he/she wanted to go?
EDIT: To refine the question further, my point is that moving in a straight line is constant movement. Would someone who needs to continuously activate an ability and time it right to get ahead of someone be hampered, at all?
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Alexander Trafford - 11-24-2009
I'd expect that there would need to me a momentary pause in which the guy with CT blips in and realizes where and what his opponent is doing. If he doesn't he is warping blindly. Even if he could predict the location of the guy with AI based on the time between his own warps and the speed of travel of the cat with AI, he couldn't keep jumping blindly because he doesn't know if the guy with AI is going to change direction or whatnot.
Given that, in the long run the advantage goes to CT even though AI has constant motion and CT does not, because, while CT is limited by distance, it is not limited to an extent that it is relevant.
The guy with AI dashes 100 yards in 2 seconds, for example, and he keeps sprinting, the cat with CT blips forward to any relatively close distance in 0 seconds. So even if he doesn't land right on the guy, AI will expend more energy quickly (because it is active motion vs. just warping) and it would only be a matter of time when the difference in speed becomes relevant and the CT guy locks down on him.
I would think.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Kaden - 11-24-2009
Trafford's dash example is a great one.
While After Image can move 100 yards in 2 seconds, Combat Teleportation does it in 0 seconds. You think it would really help to try and sprint away from someone with CT?
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Josh - 11-24-2009
After image is not made by going the speed of light, holy crap.
It's a visual effect from moving faster than your opponents brain can compensate leaving a ghosted image, ideally the person using combat teleport would need a few moments to realize you're not there anymore before warping.
I think maybe you are thinking of the flash who leaves a trail, or an image that keeps moving like what Goku did to Cell during the Cell games. That is a different technique which uses Ki to create and extend the after image, it's also used for multiple after images which you could have run in many different directions all at the same time.
Edit: I should also mention that people who use combat teleportation would also leave an after image, as the premise is the same as using the afterimage technique.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Kaden - 11-24-2009
Those details are largely irrelevant to the actual topic of the discussion.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Mal Nova - 11-24-2009
Josh Wrote:That is a different technique which uses Ki to create and extend the after image, it's also used for multiple after images which you could have run in many different directions all at the same time.
I'd go out on a limb and say telepathy would be needed to do that, as it is similar to my hologram idea...
Personally, and I may be very wrong on this, I think the way some people use After image, so often, and the way they dio it, that after so long, it's going to lose it's effectiveness(Vad would be a good example, and I tihnk Cain was another I saw do it alot). Looking back at DBZ, the Afterimage, or Zanzoken was used lesser and lesser as an actual technique, and more of a relevant way to explain how fast they were going.
Afterimage, is just that, the after image your foe sees of you as you make a much faster move in another direction. It's "Quicker then the eye can see", and is not a teleportation. As we get stronger and progress, that 'after image' will progressively become weaker and not be an after image, but will, in fact be able to be followed with ease, as your foes mind and eye coordination will get better.
At the same time, where Afterimage should lose it's effectiveness, CT will infact become better, as the users will progressively get better and better at it and require less concentration to utilize it.
THis is only my opinion, so feel free to correct me if Im wrong...
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Tyr - 11-24-2009
I honestly don't see the purpose of After Image. I'm sorry, but I've always loved the way they 'blinked' around in fights trading punches because they were so fast and because of After Image, I'd imagine that's no longer possible no matter our powerlevel. I know these characters we have are insanely scaled down compared to real dragonball characters, but still.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Vad - 11-24-2009
Alexander Trafford Wrote:I'd expect that there would need to me a momentary pause in which the guy with CT blips in and realizes where and what his opponent is doing. If he doesn't he is warping blindly. Even if he could predict the location of the guy with AI based on the time between his own warps and the speed of travel of the cat with AI, he couldn't keep jumping blindly because he doesn't know if the guy with AI is going to change direction or whatnot.
Given that, in the long run the advantage goes to CT even though AI has constant motion and CT does not, because, while CT is limited by distance, it is not limited to an extent that it is relevant.
The guy with AI dashes 100 yards in 2 seconds, for example, and he keeps sprinting, the cat with CT blips forward to any relatively close distance in 0 seconds. So even if he doesn't land right on the guy, AI will expend more energy quickly (because it is active motion vs. just warping) and it would only be a matter of time when the difference in speed becomes relevant and the CT guy locks down on him.
I would think.
This is what I was getting at.
To answer your question Kaden, be it rhetorical or not, I write Vad to have a tactical mastery of combat situations and well, I can't do that if I don't run examples on paper so I actually have plans for him to produce on his own. If that makes any sense. Even if a momentary state of confusion occurred due to Vad's constant movement, that's all he would need to take advantage of the situation (or at least try to). If the person with CT were to catch on, yeah, shit outta luck. They can just blip away or counter. Vad isn't fast enough to keep up.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Mal Nova - 11-24-2009
Vad Wrote:This is what I was getting at.
To answer your question Kaden, be it rhetorical or not, I write Vad to have a tactical mastery of combat situations and well, I can't do that if I don't run examples on paper so I actually have plans for him to produce on his own. If that makes any sense. Even if a momentary state of confusion occurred due to Vad's constant movement, that's all he would need to take advantage of the situation (or at least try to). If the person with CT were to catch on, yeah, shit outta luck. They can just blip away or counter. Vad isn't fast enough to keep up.
YOU CANT FLEE with Afterimage.
And like I said... AI... will become Weaker as we gp foward, and CT will grow stronger.
WITH AI... you are not Teleporting, you're just getting boosts of speed Faster then the Eye can see.
If YOU TRIED AI as a normal person, against Kaden IN Power up Teir 1 mode, you really be laughed at.
As a matter of a fact. if you did AI against Kaden, you'd be fucked anyways.
Cain did it best in our fight, when Mal started to predict the after image shit....
But again it was used to show speed on the show, and at times trick a foe, but it usually failed.
When you but so much emphasis on a tech.... do you really think that one such as After Image will last?
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Vad - 11-25-2009
I wasn't using any specific character as a reference nor was I using the show for a reference. I merely wanted to question this mechanic. I developed a scenario I was iffy about and I presented a question.
Quote:Afterimage - 20 XP - A quick boost in ki which a fighter to disappear and appear somewhere else nearby in an instant. When activated an "image" of the user is left behind for several seconds. This is a temporary boost to speed and can be matched by somebody who also has this ability.Vad can keep activating said boost of KI coupled with Flight for constant movement (If I'm wrong, someone correct me). Personally it irks me that just because Kaden would be able to detect his movements that the whole idea is instantly garbage. I don't appreciate you saying that.
After Image was never used in DBZ (the show) just as an FYI. It was either a teleport or pure speed that moved them around. The Namek Saga where Goku engaged Jeice and Recoome was pure speed. No teleport or After Image.
The first instance I can recall After Image being used was in the fight with Omega Shenron with Goku and Vegeta trying to fuse. Which wasn't even Akira made so it's literally worthless information to be quoting.
Now I haven't read the Manga so AI might be in there, but that isn't really why I made this thread. I'm not here to discuss the stupidity of fleeing with After Image. Also to clarify, one can flee easily with said technique. Take flying in a straight line. If Piper were to teleport in front of Vad he could After Image to the left, right, up or down and continue. I'm discussing fight mechanics here (What goes on in a written post that involves fighting).
So, again, is it safe to assume that Trafford was right? Though there is a small delay it's really a moot point once the CT user starts to catch on?
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Kaden - 11-25-2009
Vad Wrote:Vad can keep activating said boost of KI coupled with Flight for constant movement (If I'm wrong, someone correct me). Personally it irks me that just because Kaden would be able to detect his movements that the whole idea is instantly garbage. I don't appreciate you saying that.
It irks you that the ability to detect people ruins the "run and hide plan"? That's... pretty much the point of detection.
Quote:After Image was never used in DBZ (the show) just as an FYI. It was either a teleport or pure speed that moved them around. The Namek Saga where Goku engaged Jeice and Recoome was pure speed. No teleport or After Image.
It absolutely was used in the show. Hell, in the very first fight with Raditzu it's used. Or the scene where it looks like someone is shooting beams through Goku. Or the fight with Cell.
While Josh's post was largely irrelevant to the central point of the thread, that doesn't make it wrong. Quite the opposite. Pure speed is exactly what After Image is.
In the description of the Technique, using the boost of ki to increase speed is what creates the After Image. It's not like it's some image made out of ki.
Quote:So, again, is it safe to assume that Trafford was right? Though there is a small delay it's really a moot point once the CT user starts to catch on?
Again, yes. The "delay" however, isn't part of Combat Teleportation. It's a part of the thought process of whoever is doing the chasing. If you're trying to run from someone who had both Ki Sense and Combat Teleportation, for example, you'd stand virtually no chance. Throw in as much fancy zig-zaging as you want, but they're still going to know where you went and they're still going to be move from point A to point B in zero seconds.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Vad - 11-25-2009
Kaden Wrote:It irks you that the ability to detect people ruins the "run and hide plan"? That's... pretty much the point of detection.
It irked me because I felt he was shooting down my want to question it just because it could be stopped. I am fully aware of it being countered. That doesn't mean I'm going to drop it and call it quits.
Quote:It absolutely was used in the show. Hell, in the very first fight with Raditzu it's used. Or the scene where it looks like someone is shooting beams through Goku. Or the fight with Cell.While I would love to talk show with you I don't really feel it would help this thread. I chalk this to my ADD ability to contradict myself...that or me forgetting something. Which happens.
While Josh's post was largely irrelevant to the central point of the thread, that doesn't make it wrong. Quite the opposite. Pure speed is exactly what After Image is.
Quote:In the description of the Technique, using the boost of ki to increase speed is what creates the After Image. It's not like it's some image made out of ki.That's what I'm implying. I was trying to say that I could flee with it. Or can't I?
Quote:Again, yes. The "delay" however, isn't part of Combat Teleportation. It's a part of the thought process of whoever is doing the chasing. If you're trying to run from someone who had both Ki Sense and Combat Teleportation, for example, you'd stand virtually no chance. Throw in as much fancy zig-zaging as you want, but they're still going to know where you went and they're still going to be move from point A to point B in zero seconds.Looking at it from an OOC stand point, yeah. There is no chance of it working with Ki Sense and CT, but in a fight Vad would use it anyway. And being him, if it didn't work he would not use it again.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Alura - 11-25-2009
I have a similiar question. If I have CT, does this mean I automatically have Afterimage, based on what Josh said?
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Alexander Trafford - 11-25-2009
I don't understand how that makes sense.
After image is, as stated, the ability to sprint faster than the eye can follow. So an afterimage is left until the person watching "catches up." So, a normal person using Afterimage against, for example, Raditzu would be useless since Raditzu's speed is so much greater than the normal person, so it would take him 0 seconds, or close to 0 seconds, to physically catch up with the speed of the normal person.
CT is the complete disappearence of a person, the breakdown of their physical being and its relocation in another area. It's not a visual trick based on speed, because CT has no speed (and by that i mean it has no real, measureable velocity). So i don't think an afterimage would be left, but it would be more realistic to what happens when a player uses stealth (though stealth is different because travel in stealh is normal not instantaneous), or a cloaking device. Their physical being completely vanishes, no afterimage, no nothing, then reappears in a separate location.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Kaden - 11-25-2009
Trafford is exactly correct.
Quote:That's what I'm implying. I was trying to say that I could flee with it. Or can't I?After Image gives you a boost of speed to try and visually trick an opponent. What you actually end up doing with that speed is up to you. So, yes, you could try to flee with it.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Vad - 11-25-2009
Alright. Thank you.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Josh - 11-25-2009
Alexander Trafford Wrote:I don't understand how that makes sense.
After image is, as stated, the ability to sprint faster than the eye can follow. So an afterimage is left until the person watching "catches up." So, a normal person using Afterimage against, for example, Raditzu would be useless since Raditzu's speed is so much greater than the normal person, so it would take him 0 seconds, or close to 0 seconds, to physically catch up with the speed of the normal person.
CT is the complete disappearence of a person, the breakdown of their physical being and its relocation in another area. It's not a visual trick based on speed, because CT has no speed (and by that i mean it has no real, measureable velocity). So i don't think an afterimage would be left, but it would be more realistic to what happens when a player uses stealth (though stealth is different because travel in stealh is normal not instantaneous), or a cloaking device. Their physical being completely vanishes, no afterimage, no nothing, then reappears in a separate location.
I don't understand how you came to that idea.
The after image isn't caused by velocity, it's the fact that they are stepping out of your frame of reference so fast that there is a lag between your eyes and brain updating that the person has left the frame.
Technically speaking though, Teleportation would be infinite velocity since you're moving from one point to another without any elapsed time. and Velocity is distance over time, and lim t->0 d/t = infinity.
Edit: I guess the best way would be to put it in gaming terms, an after image is like a lag spike.
Combat Teleportation vs After Image Fight Mechanics - Kaden - 11-25-2009
Josh Wrote:The after image isn't caused by velocity, it's the fact that they are stepping out of your frame of reference so fast that there is a lag between your eyes and brain updating that the person has left the frame.
What he means is that high velocity is how you step out of their frame of reference that fast.