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+--- Thread: A Question Regarding Death (/showthread.php?tid=16384)
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A Question Regarding Death - Jarka - 02-25-2011
I am in no way trying to be snarky, whiny, bitchy, or whatever here.
My character is dead. In theory, I have no issue with that. When she was killed, I was told to hold off on posting due to changes coming to the afterlife. No big deal there. This question has come up in regards to the changes I anticipated coming to the afterlife/death versus the actual changes. In discussing the change with multiple people, one point has been made abundantly clear to me:
Death always has been, and always will be, a punishment on Chubbs.
Dwelling on this, of course, has led me to wonder: What, exactly, am I being punished for?
A Question Regarding Death - Jesper - 02-25-2011
It's not always a punishment. Whoever told you that hasn't taken the site's history into account.
Having not read much of anything lately, I would assume that your death was story-related.
A Question Regarding Death - Jonathan Meer - 02-25-2011
I spent three hours explaining this to you, and I was under the impression we'd come to an understanding.
EDIT: To expound.
The structure of the saga was expressed from the very beginning as dangerous; death was entirely possible, and it would be a response to the way in which people acted and roleplayed. Because of frustrating site mechanics that were out of my control at the time, it became evident to me that I simply would not be able to kill characters.
Then, things got figured out, matters were debated and sorted, and suddenly the mechanics that were so cumbersome to the actual point and purpose of the saga were made minor. A week or so after this point, you roleplayed your character as being shot in the chest in the middle of the chaotic climax of a planetary war. In the original spirit of the saga (which I was clear about, from day one), that led to a death.
As I've expressed to you multiple times, this is not a single-out-Jarka thing. This is not a 'Emily wrote like shit' thing. It's the ramification of the saga. Had you not written that your character had been shot, she would not have died.
If that seems like an inconsistency, I completely agree, and it annoyed the fuck out of me that I had to be inconsistent. But when the opportunity came to have the saga function as was supposed to, I decided to take that route.
As before, I'm willing to work with you on the Afterlife thing.
EDIT2: I must say, I'm amazed that the people who make the biggest ruckus about people dying 'inexplicably' seem to be the very same people who want a legitimate, living and breathing IC world. There's irony there.
A Question Regarding Death - Jarka - 02-25-2011
Jonathan Meer Wrote:I spent three hours explaining this to you, and I was under the impression we'd come to an understanding.
This is not an issue with you: you seem to be more willing to listen to what I am trying to say than most have been.
Having dwelt on this, I am simply trying to get my mind around what is being told to me on one end regarding my character in particular and what is being told to me in regards to the treatment of death in general.
This is important because the direction of the changes I had anticipated were completely different from the changes as they have actually occurred. As I have tried to discuss this with multiple people, all have told me in one way or another that my expectations were baseless: character death is supposed to be a form of negative feedback.
A night of good sleep can lead a person to reach new conclusions.
A Question Regarding Death - Jarka - 02-25-2011
Jonathan Meer Wrote:EDIT2: I must say, I'm amazed that the people who make the biggest ruckus about people dying 'inexplicably' seem to be the very same people who want a legitimate, living and breathing IC world. There's irony there.
If that snark is directed towards me, than that's completely unnecessary. I have said before that I do not have a problem with the fact that Jarka died. If I did, I would be making a much bigger ruckus than this.
I try to write realistically; a cook with a week of combat training being thrust on the battlefield would not be a very successful soldier. That is how I fit into my legitimate, living and breathing IC world. It made sense that Jarka died, story-wise. Granted, Victoria EXPLODED and still survived. Vad was mangled. Mal Nova regularly faced odds that were totally impossible and came out with a buff. I am also probably the only character to ever receive immediate (and accurate) medical attention for an injury. I could complain about the fact that, after my post, I expressed concern in the chatbox that I was uncertain about the fate of my character due to being shot in the chest to which you responded that nobody would die. I have not complained about this. In fact, I voiced my support to you when it actually happened.
My issue is not with you.
Again, my bringing this question up has more to do with the feedback I have received from other people when discussing the anticipated changes to the afterlife. I have had multiple people clearly tell me that the purpose of death on Chubbs is negative feedback.
If this is the case, than I am simply asking how my character fits into that definition of death.
You know that I agree with how you intended to use death in the saga. You know that I do not have any massive underlying upset over the fact that my character died. You know that I believe death should be used with a great impact.
However, any time I try to bring up the direction of changes that I expected in the death mechanic or changes that I would like to see, I have been told that it is completely in opposition to what death is supposed to be on Chubbs: punishment.
You cannot have a mechanic that is simultaneously intended to punish and just solely exist as storyline fluff. This is where my issue lies.
A Question Regarding Death - Jonathan Meer - 02-25-2011
It doesn't help that we have five different people trying to explain Death in the throes of a newly implemented mechanic. Most of us are on the same page, I'm pretty sure, but we're using different rhetoric. That might be part of the problem.
Death is not a punishment. As you know in your scenario (because we talked about it), Jarka's death was not a punishment. It was a pure reaction to IC events. Death can be that.
Death can also be a punishment for inactivity in a saga.
The death in your case was IC. The death in the second case was OOC, regarding mechanics. Death participates in both cases.
In other words, those people who are saying that death is always negative feedback, full stop, are wrong. Don't listen to 'em.
A Question Regarding Death - Jarka - 02-25-2011
If such is the case, then there are different points to argue.
I'll elaborate on this tonight, I'll be heading to work too soon to get a coherent response in.
A Question Regarding Death - Victoria - 02-25-2011
Just to be clear, Victoria didn't explode, she used one of her custom techs at the power of 50,000 CA which exploded the ground around her massively. Meer also thought Victoria exploded herself, that wasn't the case. She laid out electric traps and set them all off with a dome of energy. I only intended on it to scale the landing strip, not the space port, but maybe I was too vague.
Why are we fussing over death? You could always just do a quest and come back to life, prove people that you can take the afterlife and make it something. Adding techniques or abilities to the afterlife would probably make it a place where everyone wants to go...and would die to do so. You have to look at it from our perspective too, not just from yours because you died. We were told that death was horrible because it was isolated so we did what we'd never done before, we made it so you could be a "ghost" and still interact in the life. It adds more flavor.
I've been on this site for almost ten years and never has heaven, or hell, in my time, had techniques available. If you died you went and you RPed and you dealt with it, you get revived, and you would be proud of such a feat. The only time you got techniques was by going to King Kai's. It was special, it was for those who went above and beyond.
Death isn't always a punishment. When it was, you were sent to Hell, which was a place less favorable because most people went to heaven. There was no arguing about adding things, hell, we only just added quests at the time so those were barely there. My death had been story purpose as well back then. I took it, and I made it work.
I won't care either way if we do add techs or anything to the afterlife...I just honestly don't see the big deal. If I died and went to Heaven, or Hell, I'd RP the shit out of that place. It's such a big thing IC wise, it would blow my mind and inspire me. Hence why I want Vic to die at some point. It's not permanent, at least there's that.
A Question Regarding Death - Kaden - 02-25-2011
The negative feedback was not for anything OOC (writing quality/activity/whatever) in this case. You character got shot in the middle of a war. Then she died.
I don't understand where the "why?" comes in. Weren't you offered the chance to stay alive instead of die?
A Question Regarding Death - Jarka - 02-26-2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victoria
![[Image: viewpost.gif]](http://www.cdbzrpg.com/forum/images/kembara2/buttons/viewpost.gif)
See Vic's post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaden
The negative feedback was not for anything OOC (writing quality/activity/whatever) in this case. You character got shot in the middle of a war. Then she died.
I don't understand where the "why?" comes in. Weren't you offered the chance to stay alive instead of die?
No. Death was always certain; I was offered a chance to be instantly resurrected. That opposes my view of how death should be on this website: a significant gesture. Hence why I chose to stay dead.
I also feel as though people are completely misinterpreting the intent of this line of questioning.
I am completely and totally okay with the fact that Jarka died. I don't know how many times I can say that. However, in discussing death on Chubbs, multiple people have implied to me that death is a form of negative feedback. Ergo, I wondered what possible negative feedback I was receiving.
In addition, I plan on staying dead. I plan on roleplaying in the afterlife for a bit. I think it's important to Jarka's character, and I have always looked forward to an incorporeal adventure. I am not trying to earn a get out of the afterlife free card.
Was I planning on dying this soon? No. Absolutely not. I had plans to finally write with Piper and Sigfried in a personal storyline (which was my entire reason for joining this site) as soon as the saga was done. The saga just happened to give our characters a reason to meet when there was none before. It kind of sucks to have that taken away, not going to lie. But, am I going to throw a fit when there have been multiple times in this thread (and in discussions elsewhere) where I have stated I do not have an issue with the fact that Jarka has died? No.
I don't like being told that I am fussing over my death. My concerns in this thread are with the consistency of the mechanic as a whole on this website, which I've attempted to make clear is my intent. I would be making the same arguments if Jarka were still alive and an analogous character had died in a similar fashion, although I would likely be ignored because what do I know I'm just a new member.
I just got back from work, so give me a little bit to construct my thoughts on the dynamics of the afterlife in the form of another post before you all completely misconstrue everything I said here again.
EDIT: Holy shit. I meant to click "quote" and clicked "edit" instead. So... yeah. Fixed your post.
A Question Regarding Death - Orion - 02-26-2011
Jarka Wrote:I am completely and totally okay with the fact that Jarka died. I don't know how many times I can say that. However, in discussing death on Chubbs, multiple people have implied to me that death is a form of negative feedback. Ergo, I wondered what possible negative feedback I was receiving.
It's already been mentioned. There's nothing negative that you will receive from death, save the 50% CA reduction and different limitations on where you can roleplay (which is mostly restrictions from participating in sagas, quests, jobs). Other than that, I seriously cannot understand what you're asking.
A Question Regarding Death - Kaden - 02-26-2011
Jarka Wrote:My concerns in this thread are with the consistency of the mechanic as a whole on this website, which I've attempted to make clear is my intent. I would be making the same arguments if Jarka were still alive and an analogous character had died in a similar fashion, although I would likely be ignored because what do I know I'm just a new member.
Kaden Wrote:The negative feedback was not for anything OOC (writing quality/activity/whatever) in this case. You character got shot in the middle of a war. Then she died.
How is there an inconsistency there? I genuinely don't understand.
A Question Regarding Death - Ashe - 02-26-2011
I think perhaps what she might be saying is "I understand death being a necessary aspect of this type of RPG, from the in character perspective. That said, why does there have to be a punishment attached to it, as it carries a stigma that you've done something wrong by simply not winning."
A Question Regarding Death - Jarka - 02-26-2011
Kaden Wrote:How is there an inconsistency there? I genuinely don't understand.
CHATBOX Wrote:24/02/2011 21:37 <Kaden> Segregation as a method of punishment has never worked to the benefit of the RPG. Anyone who has ever died has had a drop in activity
Along with other comments along these lines (by other members, not just you), I had been led to believe that the afterlife is a form of punishment. Since you were, you know, describing the afterlife in that statement.
I have since been told in this thread prior to your joining in that the afterlife is apparently not punishment, despite that being what many people have said/implied when discussing it. I understand that Jarka was not killed as any sort of punishment, it was just storyline fodder.
Jarka Wrote:You cannot have a mechanic that is simultaneously intended to punish and just solely exist as storyline fluff. This is where my issue lies.
Therein lies the purpose of the thread. I know not every situation is perfect or ideal. Again, I'm currently working on a post regarding my solidified thoughts on the dynamics of death and the afterlife.
A Question Regarding Death - Jarka - 02-26-2011
Ashe Wrote:I think perhaps what she might be saying is "I understand death being a necessary aspect of this type of RPG, from the in character perspective. That said, why does there have to be a punishment attached to it, as it carries a stigma that you've done something wrong by simply not winning."
Pretty much, yeah.
I understand death being a necessary (and interesting) aspect of this type of RPG, from the in character perspective. That said, many people view it as a method of punishment, as it carries a stigma that you've done something wrong. Perhaps this should be discussed.
A Question Regarding Death - Kaden - 02-26-2011
Really the answer to that question is "because that's how we decided to use the Afterlife."
That's really what that comes down to.
A Question Regarding Death - Jarka - 02-26-2011
Kaden Wrote:Really the answer to that question is "because that's how we decided to use the Afterlife."
That's really what that comes down to.
I don't know how else to phrase this without you completely not understanding what I'm trying to say.
Whatever. I won't even bother anymore.
A Question Regarding Death - Victoria - 02-26-2011
I'm not very good at these things...Jarka, is it the -50% you don't think fits? Or the ability to move from afterlife to real life while still being dead?
I understand if you just want to drop it. I just wanted to know.
A Question Regarding Death - Kaden - 02-26-2011
EDIT: I understand what you're saying, but if you're done, that's fine.
A Question Regarding Death - Jarka - 02-26-2011
Victoria Wrote:I'm not very good at these things...Jarka, is it the -50% you don't think fits? Or the ability to move from afterlife to real life while still being dead?
I understand if you just want to drop it. I just wanted to know.
Thanks, Vic.
My problem actually lies in the fact that, in much of the discussion I have had regarding the afterlife, many people view the afterlife primarily as a form of punishment and that seems to hinder honest review of mechanics and dynamics. It's also quite frustrating to have a genuine interest in discussing said dynamics and being unable to until they've already been implemented. Having them affect me simply makes it worse because everybody assumes I'm just bitching about my own situation, when I'm really not. I just happened to be a good example in this case.
In regards to my opinion on the mechanics, yes, I think the weight of death has been lessened to way too extreme of a degree. Things were way over-compensated in this change. Death means almost nothing now, just a quest to resurrect in order to return to full power.
Things would be made at least a little bit better if the movement between afterlife and real life was only made unlockable by a quest (Like, Medium/Hard to move between and Hard/Epic to resurrect).
I also feel like there's nothing tethering people to the afterlife anymore, so the forums might as well be eliminated and turned into a "Resurrection Threads" forum.
I had more in-depth thoughts and ideas on the issue but I deleted the post in frustration earlier and don't feel like trying to be heard anymore.
ETA: As long as you understand what I'm trying to say, Kaden.