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Rank System brain dump - Belle Hibiki - 07-21-2011
A rank based system of power
The Ranks:
D
C
B
A
----
S
----
SS
SSS
M
Rank is determined based on activity (XP earned) over a period of time. The more active you are, the higher your rank will be. Ranks D, C, B, and A are standard. Rank S is obtainable through either excessive performance or a short-term XP-bought 'boost.' SS, SSS, and M are ranks only obtainable during Power Ups.
Time Period
The time period over which your activity is tracked is the last three months. The total is tallied at the end of each month* (?).
*Depends on what the site can do.
Power Ups
Instead of multiplying your power, a Power Up temporarily increases your current rank. The x2 transformation increases rank by one step, the current x3 increases rank by two steps, and the current x4 increases rank by three steps.
The Ranks, their Goals, and what they Mean
M/SSS/SS – Only obtainable through power-ups.
S Rank
Target: ??? XP per quarter. Probably something obscene. You know how Victoria spams sometimes? Probably that. Over three months.
More typical method of access would be a short-term 'buff' that one could buy with XP. Unsure of cost.
A Rank
Target: 60 XP per quarter.
What it means: You are a mover and shaker in sagas. Your power is on the bleeding edge of what's possible. When the world needs a hero, you are at the top of a very short list. Enemies will learn to beware your presence, or they will learn to regret it.
Series Examples: I was going to give series examples, but then I realized that people of A rank would be pretty pissed and find it hard to believe losing to the examples I was giving of D rank (people like Roshi and Bulma).
B Rank
Target: 20 XP per quarter
What it means: Although a second stringer, you are by no means a weakling. Your power far exceeds that of other superhumans, and although you might sometimes have difficulty keeping up with your more obsessed/possessed/driven/crazy companions, you can give even the strongest enemies a good fight and, depending on your abilities, change the tide of battle.
C Rank
Target: 10 XP per quarter
What it means: For whatever reason, you've fallen behind the curve. Maybe something bad has happened in your life and you've stopped training. Maybe you've hit a wall. Maybe you've been too busy having crazy sex with adoring fans. For whatever reason, you're just not as strong as most of the guys around you. Don't worry, though, the Kais love an Underdog. And remember: even little guys can pack a mean punch.
D Rank
Target: 0 XP per quarter
What it means: You might have just awakened your powers, or you might not even be a 'super' at all, but have some nice tech. You might be a retired martial arts master living out your better days in quiet, knowing that other people have shit covered. For current fighters, your friends' growth has so far outstripped your own that they might regard you with pity. Your best bet in fights between Rank As and higher is to stay as far away from them as you can. Still, you can be invaluable in a support role.
Rank Strength and Judgment
Each rank is roughly half-again* the power of the one that preceded it. As usual, the winner of a fight is determined by staff judgment, and whatever would be 'realistic' given power gaps.
*The original idea was 'double,' but it was suggested that it might be too large a jump from rank to rank. I still personally prefer the doubling, because it made Power-Ups really "wicked awesome." However, it is also undeniable that it would feel like someone one or two ranks down really wouldn't have a chance. This is a problem...
... And on second thought, I'm not sure if it's even wise to quantify rank strength in this way.
Other shit:
Weighted Clothing: CA doesn't exist, so that part of this item is pointless. New function: As long as you're wearing this item, you can't fall below Rank C, regardless of how little you train.
Maybe make it expensive.
Eras: The idea behind shifting ranks is that you fall behind because other people are advancing ahead. At some point, maybe every half a year or year, the staff makes a Civilization-style post describing a shift into a new era, making note of the kind of power you can expect from characters now.
Depending on how ops stretch it out, this can be fine. I'm not a super fan of it personally; one day you might return to “everyone is a planet-buster.” But, I suppose, that could be so far into the future that it might not need to be worried about.
Enemy Strength/Quest Difficulty: Is now rated by the number of players of a given rank would be required to complete it. Ie. a Big Bad Evil Guy for a saga might have a difficulty rating of 3SS - meaning it would take approximately three characters at SS rank to meet the challenge.
Why bother with this rank shit?
A recurring problem in sites like this is the fact that newcomers almost invariably have a really tough time getting started. The power gap is currently so wide that it would require the average person something like two years to catch up.
The “well we earned it, so of course we should be that strong” attitude that seemed fine around the time of the reset appears shortsighted in retrospect. Perhaps we envisioned raising the starting CA at some point down the road, but this has not happened, even though it's desperately needed to for a long time now.
With the proposed Rank system, a player retains their character growth (Power Ups, Techs, items, etc.) without letting the actual strength of characters get to the point where newbies can't catch up. If a new player is willing to put in the effort, they can 'get strong' enough to compete in a reasonable amount of time.
Additionally, one of the few good things about the old automated system was that a player HAD to remain active in order to continue accumulating TP. This system has same idea: encouraging people to roleplay, lest they lose their current rank. We kind of have a system like that now – if someone doesn't RP, they don't get XP and CA – but the rate of turnaround on this is extremely low.
I feel that this system would keep people active and make the game more attractive to newbies; however, the staff must absolutely commit to running more player vs. villain(s) sagas.
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I shared these ideas with Rose and got some feedback on it - namely that the four base ranks could possibly be expanded to five (A, B, C, D, E), with C being an Average fighter. This is very doable - I'm just a fan of keeping things compact.
Other ideas are, of course, welcome.
----
Other crap:
Visual Style
As others have pointed out, our current site is, well, kind of bland. It could do with a bit of sprucing up.
Cast in point: I was going to write that we don't even have CA on our postbits, frowned, flipped over to Chubbs, and realized we did. The eye just passes over it right now.
There are a lot of things you could do with visual design, but some ideas are:
- Percentages for stats on Rosters: I know some people like them. I don't. I think it would be better to switch over to a 'pip' system a la World of Darkness. Give players 10 'pips' to distribute between their stats. (Inner Strength gives 2 additional pips.) These pips could be of any design; I think little Dragonballs, like so:
Quote:
- Strength -
- Focus -
- Endurance -
- Agility -
- PP - 7/7
![[Image: DBicon-1.jpg]](http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff137/catseye543/DBicon-1.jpg)
It's less exact than percentages, and in my mind that's a good thing. Someone shouldn't know to exact percentage points how fast I am relative to someone else. A broader-stroke pip system, IMO, is better.
- Banners for ranks. Make them cool, and make them visible. They should be the most important thing on the postbit after the user's avatar.
- How many Dragonballs a person is carrying should be immediately obvious on their postbit. Not only does it make things clearer for people thinking of getting into the Dragonball race, but it also can become a mark of prestige for the holders, similar to the 'medals' we have now (which are awesome).
----
That's probably as much of a splat as I want to put out there. There's probably a couple dozen things I haven't thought of, but I'll think about them in the morning when I'm not sleepy.
Rank System brain dump - Kaden - 07-21-2011
Ultimately, what switching to a system like this comes down to is answering the question: to what degree do we want to marginalize stats?
I agree that the "you get what you've earned" approach ended up being short-sighted. Only a few days before this thread, actually, we were talking about bumping up the minimum CA number.
There are definitely pros and cons to switching to a ranked system like this. It's basically "ballparks" from Another Destiny (for those who are familiar with that) and was actually discussed when talking about turnover stuff. Some good stuff to think about, definitely.
More than anything, though, I want to thank Belle for providing his thoughts and ideas in a constructive, reasonable manner. Posts like this will always be given the amount of consideration they deserve. I really can't express how much, from me at least, this kind of post is appreciated.
Rank System brain dump - Super Buu - 07-21-2011
As said to Belle through PM, I slightly prefer 5 ranks to 4, from A-E, to maybe put something between the 60 and 20 XP per quarter mark (which I'd say should be what B's description currently is, and then make a new C at the 20 XP mark that's 'middle of the road' and bump the others down). Makes things a little more granular.
I also suggested a +50% increase between ranks instead of the doubling, because whilst 'doubling' is much simpler terminology, it's just too massive a jump between ranks IMO. 50% keeps transformations pretty friggin' significant whilst not trivialising the rank below.
What I like about this system is that it retains character growth and rewards through buying powerups, techs and such, but keeps the most important thing - raw power - nicely in check and balance, whilst at the same time keeping the dynamic power differences that make DBZ interesting. I think the 'eras' thing is a cool idea and should be used (the only way to avoid that planet-buster problem FOREVER would be to remove power progression entirely, and I think that'd be throwing out the baby with the bathwater) just make it very gradual, to last us many years of roleplaying goodness.
tl;dr: Belle's system is p pro.
Rank System brain dump - Rafael - 07-21-2011
I agree with adding a 5th E rank, as it currently goes from "Well above average supers" to "Behind the curve". Overall though, awesome idea if tracking the exp for everyone isn't too hard. No idea, don't know about those kinds of things.
Also dig the dragon ball pips as stat markers. anything less than a 10% swing in the current system isn't something I've ever considered a big deal. 5% focus, 9%, either way I consider your focus attacks pretty weak.
Overall, love all these ideas. One thing I wonder about is, would this require a power reset of sorts? Would be odd, to me at least, if I actually got into writing for a few months and I was considered in the same league as, say, Victoria. Granted, powerful folks come out of nowhere all the time in DBZ, so could work that way.
Rank System brain dump - Super Buu - 07-21-2011
This system actually genuinely excites me as both a gamer and a writer, because I think about how I could be nearly as strong, or even just as strong as the strongest characters if I just put the effort in. In any of our previous systems, that's been pretty much impossible because if you get left behind, the power gap just gets bigger and bigger, which is rather disheartening. It's not like WoW where there's a level cap so you can eventually catch up with your friends.
Rank System brain dump - Rafael - 07-21-2011
I also just like the lettering. It's a real goal to shoot for, being an "A" vice "I want more CA". Also, you can't tell me that having "Rank: B" or whichever next to your avatar isn't 100 times cooler than "3,000 CA"
Rank System brain dump - Jesper - 07-21-2011
Rose Wrote:As said to Belle through PM, I slightly prefer 5 ranks to 4, from A-E, to maybe put something between the 60 and 20 XP per quarter mark (which I'd say should be what B's description currently is, and then make a new C at the 20 XP mark that's 'middle of the road' and bump the others down). Makes things a little more granular.
I also suggested a +50% increase between ranks instead of the doubling, because whilst 'doubling' is much simpler terminology, it's just too massive a jump between ranks IMO. 50% keeps transformations pretty friggin' significant whilst not trivialising the rank below.
What I like about this system is that it retains character growth and rewards through buying powerups, techs and such, but keeps the most important thing - raw power - nicely in check and balance, whilst at the same time keeping the dynamic power differences that make DBZ interesting. I think the 'eras' thing is a cool idea and should be used (the only way to avoid that planet-buster problem FOREVER would be to remove power progression entirely, and I think that'd be throwing out the baby with the bathwater) just make it very gradual, to last us many years of roleplaying goodness.
tl;dr: Belle's system is p pro.
I actually agree with this. There's not much I don't like about the OP.
Rank System brain dump - Sigfried Hunin - 07-21-2011
I think this system is awesome, and I hadn't thought about it.
Using activity in SOME WAY to determine your power level is the best idea I've heard so far. I think that this is the most efficient and wise to both maintain activity and reward active members. Also, it prevents people from just ACCUMULATING MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF PL and then sitting around with it. It makes the playing field EVEN for everyone because it's based off of how much you've been DOING not how much you have DONE.
PS: THIS IS SUCH A FUCKING GOOD IDEA. Also, we obviously have the technical ability to do this based off of the little activity bars we ALREADY HAVE.
Rank System brain dump - Kaden - 07-21-2011
Sigfried Hunin Wrote:Also, we obviously have the technical ability to do this based off of the little activity bars we ALREADY HAVE.
Unless you actually added the bars, you're not really in a position to say that we can "obviously" do anything. I'm not either. I have no idea what technical limitations we may be looking at. Just don't assume that something should because something else does.
I'm going to play devil's advocate here. The biggest concern this raises with me is the further emphasis it will place on quantity over "quality" and that's already the most common criticism the current system receives.
Quote:It makes the playing field EVEN for everyone because it's based off of how much you've been DOING not how much you have DONE.
This is kind of a side-note, but I've never really liked that so many people draw this arbitrary line where things that happened after it shouldn't matter. That's what you're doing.
It's actually less of a side-note than I thought it would be because it ties into another concern to consider: continuity. People would be bouncing around ranks on a regular basis and people would have to retcon in explanations for that. It reminds me of when we had characters changing hands in the old Chubbs. Someone would suddenly do something weird and there would be a moment of people looking at it awkwardly before someone made some sense of it in the next post.
There was something else I was going to say, but I got distracted and lost my train of thought. I'm sure it will come to me.
One thing that I should have actually said in my first post, to everyone, was to actually consider the implementation of something like this. It's really easy to see a new, different idea on paper and get excited about it. People should get excited about it, that's the whole point of discussion. However, just railing on that "this is perfect do it nao" doesn't help. There is no perfect system. There are always things to consider.
Rank System brain dump - Rafael - 07-21-2011
Naturally, I pretend no understanding of what would be required to implement this system, it just looks badass. As far as retconning, idk about that. At one point, Piccolo was the baddest mo fo on the show, but...then he wasn't because he spent all his time training Gohan and shaving his pedo'stache. The series adjusted easily.
Rank System brain dump - Kaden - 07-21-2011
The series adjusted easily because they had story-telling mechanics that allowed for it. There could easily be situations where people's power changes drastically from one day to the next.
Rank System brain dump - Vad - 07-21-2011
Kaden Wrote:The series adjusted easily because they had story-telling mechanics that allowed for it. There could easily be situations where people's power changes drastically from one day to the next.
This. I always twitch when people mention story telling mechanics in a system building discussion.
Rank System brain dump - Kaden - 07-21-2011
Vad Wrote:This. I always twitch when people mention story telling mechanics in a system building discussion.
It makes sense in a situation like this because one can potentially have a direct effect on the other.
Rank System brain dump - Rafael - 07-21-2011
What I'm saying though, is related to the era mechanic mentioned in OP. If you don't post for a while assume and other people are being active and getting stronger, why shouldn't it make sense for them to be catching up and your relative strength decreasing?
Rank System brain dump - Kaden - 07-21-2011
Rafael Wrote:What I'm saying though, is related to the era mechanic mentioned in OP. If you don't post for a while assume and other people are being active and getting stronger, why shouldn't it make sense for them to be catching up and your relative strength decreasing?
That only happens if there's an era shift as you fall in rank from a higher one to a lower one of equivalent adjusted power.
Within the same era, according to ranks, you actually are losing power. It's not a matter of "well these people trained and passed me up." The best explanation becomes "I stopped training so I got weaker" and, even then isn't always applicable or sensible.
I'm not saying this an end-of-the-world problem. I'm saying this is an issue with the system that I see people complaining about six months after it gets implemented, if it ever does.
Rank System brain dump - Vad - 07-21-2011
Rafael Wrote:why shouldn't it make sense for them to be catching up and your relative strength decreasing?
Hmmm. Power atrophy during an era shift would be very interesting.
Rank System brain dump - Kaden - 07-21-2011
Vad Wrote:Hmmm. Power atrophy during an era shift would be very interesting.
And it would totally make sense with an appropriate shift upwards at regular intervals.
That, however, very quickly marginalizes the ability to keep a cap on "power creep," which, to me, is probably the most attractive feature of the system. Being able to say "you can only blow up a car" doesn't mean much when, every three months what you can explode gets bigger and bigger.
This is simply a situation where the writing would have to explain the mechanics instead of the mechanics explaining themselves.
Rank System brain dump - Vad - 07-21-2011
Kaden Wrote:And it would totally make sense with an appropriate shift upwards at regular intervals.
That, however, very quickly marginalizes the ability to keep a cap on "power creep," which, to me, is probably the most attractive feature of the system. Being able to say "you can only blow up a car" doesn't mean much when, every three months what you can explode gets bigger and bigger.
This is simply a situation where the writing would have to explain the mechanics instead of the mechanics explaining themselves.
Even a temporary state of atrophy would be a cool mechanic (at least to me). It doesn't even have to be atrophy in the sense of losing power it could be that your body is temporarily unable to gain power at it's normal rate and you're gaining at 75% capacity for a short period of time.
EDIT: A debuff for instance called "Power Potential Atrophy."
Rank System brain dump - Sigfried Hunin - 07-21-2011
Kaden Wrote:Unless you actually added the bars, you're not really in a position to say that we can "obviously" do anything. I'm not either. I have no idea what technical limitations we may be looking at. Just don't assume that something should because something else does.
I'm going to play devil's advocate here. The biggest concern this raises with me is the further emphasis it will place on quantity over "quality" and that's already the most common criticism the current system receives.
Well, because the activity bar works off of activity, it "obviously" works. I don't see a point of contention here. If it doesn't work then we'll figure the fuck out.
Kaden Wrote:This is kind of a side-note, but I've never really liked that so many people draw this arbitrary line where things that happened after it shouldn't matter. That's what you're doing.
It's actually less of a side-note than I thought it would be because it ties into another concern to consider: continuity. People would be bouncing around ranks on a regular basis and people would have to retcon in explanations for that. It reminds me of when we had characters changing hands in the old Chubbs. Someone would suddenly do something weird and there would be a moment of people looking at it awkwardly before someone made some sense of it in the next post.
There was something else I was going to say, but I got distracted and lost my train of thought. I'm sure it will come to me.
One thing that I should have actually said in my first post, to everyone, was to actually consider the implementation of something like this. It's really easy to see a new, different idea on paper and get excited about it. People should get excited about it, that's the whole point of discussion. However, just railing on that "this is perfect do it nao" doesn't help. There is no perfect system. There are always things to consider.
People who once wrote a lot but now write nothing AREN'T important. They aren't PARTICIPATING. They participatED. I'm not saying that what they did wasn't worthy of merit, but in this circumstance, the fact that I did a really good job in one fucking saga does absolutely for activity now or any new members that come in. Reward those who ARE, don't just let those who WERE the best continue to BE the best despite their current inactivity.
You shouldn't get grandfathered in. You shouldn't be allowed to just stop writing and still be the best. That doesn't reward activity and it doesn't reward the site's continued growth. It rewards stagnation. It rewards impotence.
If you're looking for continuity, training or lack of training or people's PL fluctuating doesn't mean that all of a sudden you're continuity is just GONE. You stop writing for a long time, you're off of your game. You're weaker. Most people write as though they're on almost equal playing fields with one person just hardly edging out another (LIKE IN DBZ MOST OF THE TIME!) anyways. We barely know how to write our character's PLs because they do/don't matter in a real/surreal way that totally works/doesn't.
Rank System brain dump - Kaden - 07-21-2011
You sound like you're getting really worked up.