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+---- Thread: Why play Mages? (/showthread.php?tid=17383)
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Why play Mages? - Rafael - 12-13-2011
Wanna do buttloads of damage at all stages of the game? Wanna never run out of mana? Want massive amounts of free damage and/or defense that also has no extra thought required? Wanna move faster, hit harder, not die in one CC, and have super short cooldowns? Fuck picking a mage.
Seriously, mages are by far my favorites to play, but none of them feel like worthy picks anymore aside from the tankier ones(Morgana, Ryze) or those with ridiculous mobility(Kassadin, LeBlanc).
I remember when I first started almost a year ago when I could waddle around with Veigar without being called a troll, when I could deal and take damage as Vlad with the best of the rest, when Zilean bombs were more than just a reason to smile and nod at your lifesteal. unless, of course, you were hitting a mage. It increasingly feels like mages are only cool when you play other mages while the tanky deeps bro it up in other lanes trading huge damage mitigated by huge defense endlessly. Until one pops their Ult for the win, something they don't even have to bother with when they come down to tower dive at level 6, barely noticing the tower's damage or yours.
Anyway, end rant, but fuck not mages.
Why play Mages? - Mal Nova - 12-13-2011
People BAN Kass and Morg on a daily basis... Not alot play Ryze... but as Weemus will tell you and bitch if you disagree... Ryze is a powerful bitch.
You of course play weird off the wall games... with who knows what. There's usually always a mage/ap caster on the team when we play.
Those that play them are good or are trying to get good with them.
Again.. you dont really play with te others... so.. IM missing the point
Why play Mages? - Tyr - 12-13-2011
I just think Vladimir and Veigar are specialized mages and thus you can't just pick them at random when playing. It has to be in draft mode and in Veigar's case, I'd consider him a last pick to really make the other side's mage rage. It may be they have silence, but their spell has a longer travel time than your R and will still blow their arse to bits.
Vladimir on the other hand just need a proper teamcomp for it, the most effective way of playing him is probably to go mid on a comp with people with AoE ults. Jungle Nunu, solo top Gangplank, perhaps Graves AD bot and a support to keep them all alive.
Also, your Vlad should probably be a bit tanky if you have any decent farm. No health items I usually ramp 2k pretty fast on the guy.
Why play Mages? - Mr. Zhu - 12-13-2011
Rafael Wrote:Wanna do buttloads of damage at all stages of the game? Wanna never run out of mana? Want massive amounts of free damage and/or defense that also has no extra thought required? Wanna move faster, hit harder, not die in one CC, and have super short cooldowns? Fuck picking a mage.
Seriously, mages are by far my favorites to play, but none of them feel like worthy picks anymore aside from the tankier ones(Morgana, Ryze) or those with ridiculous mobility(Kassadin, LeBlanc).
I remember when I first started almost a year ago when I could waddle around with Veigar without being called a troll, when I could deal and take damage as Vlad with the best of the rest, when Zilean bombs were more than just a reason to smile and nod at your lifesteal. unless, of course, you were hitting a mage. It increasingly feels like mages are only cool when you play other mages while the tanky deeps bro it up in other lanes trading huge damage mitigated by huge defense endlessly. Until one pops their Ult for the win, something they don't even have to bother with when they come down to tower dive at level 6, barely noticing the tower's damage or yours.
Anyway, end rant, but fuck not mages.
As a person that mains Pantheon, and have seen my fair share of teammates trolling, I find the best way to shut someone up is to rape the game and then they'll never hop off your dick. I gotta say, I don't really face palm or anything when I see an unconventional pick unless its Eve or Twitch with an awful summoner spell combination, an obvious troll. Otherwise, I'm perfectly fine with people picking Veigar and Vlad.
Veigar has a great aoe stun that works for ANY team comp, and he's well known to be probably the best anti-mage mage in this game. Vlad has great capabilities if the player actually knows what they're doing. Both mages actually have cult player fan-base, and Salce (the best AP player in NA) is known for playing a mean Vlad, Orianna and Swain. Don't give a shit about what people say, do your own thing and if you're really failing hard with said mage, try another mage.
Why play Mages? - Anzekay - 12-13-2011
I still cringe inside when I see someone pick Veigar. Sure he's fun and cool and can be pretty effective sometimes, but there is just so many better choices than him for a mage. If he was a little faster or had longer range or something he wouldn't be too bad, but right now aside from your stun (which can be avoided by mobile/smart players, he just can't escape from anything and a wet noodle will kill him.
Why play Mages? - Josh - 12-13-2011
Mages tend to have fairly good utility and burst damage which makes them good. They do kind of fall off late game, but their utility tends to make up for that, they are also good at ganking top or bottom during laning phase to give your team an advantage because they can either clear out waves super fast and leave lane, or they have great mobility and can get top to raep.
I mean really, have you seen an Annie gank? It's like *A wild Annie has a Appeared*, and 75% of your HP is gone and you're stunned.
Why play Mages? - Jarka - 12-13-2011
Anzekay Wrote:I still cringe inside when I see someone pick Veigar. Sure he's fun and cool and can be pretty effective sometimes, but there is just so many better choices than him for a mage. If he was a little faster or had longer range or something he wouldn't be too bad, but right now aside from your stun (which can be avoided by mobile/smart players, he just can't escape from anything and a wet noodle will kill him.
Mr. Zhu Wrote:he's well known to be probably the best anti-mage mage in this game.
As Veigar, I have literally turned the game around by one-shotting their hyper fed mid AP every time a team fight started. Dat ult. Also, unlimited AP gain ala Nasus Siphon strike. I'd say he's best to used as a counter pick, not as a "VEIGAR OR AFK NOOBS." He can definitely turn a game around, especially since part of his power scales off of the ENEMY'S AP.
Also, Veigar buffs this patch :3
Why play Mages? - Anzekay - 12-13-2011
Late game he can work, yeah, but it's much more difficult to do anything with him if you get slapped around early game because he's so weak and slow and don't get much farm. Sure the ult will still scale with the target's AP, but if all you're going to do is drop a stun and do some damage to their AP then, well, might as well have played Annie.
Seeing veigar on the enemy team when I'm jungling fills me with as much glee as pre-jungle change jungle Olaf.
I'm not saying he's terrible, merely that I'd literally rather any other mage than him in 99% of games. Maybe these buffs (and any future ones?) will change that. We'll see.
Why play Mages? - Josh - 12-13-2011
Jarka Wrote:As Veigar, I have literally turned the game around by one-shotting their hyper fed mid AP every time a team fight started. Dat ult. Also, unlimited AP gain ala Nasus Siphon strike. I'd say he's best to used as a counter pick, not as a "VEIGAR OR AFK NOOBS." He can definitely turn a game around, especially since part of his power scales off of the ENEMY'S AP.
Also, Veigar buffs this patch :3
These buffs are so awesome, it's much easier to farm Q now that it doesn't cost nearly as much. Plus the new masteries make his Q passive ridiculous. I farmed up my Q to about 170 AP in about 30 minutes and with just a deathcap I had 453 AP that was without AP runes.
Edit: I see rumble as mostly a counter pick to have AP teams, like those with a Fiddle Jungle, or Rumble Top. Because DFG Veigar will two shot those guys.
Why play Mages? - Vad - 12-13-2011
Because frost is extremely overpow- Oh. Sorry.
:D
Miss you guys!
Why play Mages? - Jonathan Meer - 12-13-2011
Anzekay Wrote:Late game he can work, yeah, but it's much more difficult to do anything with him if you get slapped around early game because he's so weak and slow and don't get much farm.
You could say the same thing about Nasus. The key difference is that Nasus is popular and Veigar is not.
Both are counter-pick champs.
Why play Mages? - Anzekay - 12-13-2011
Nasus is slow but I wouldn't really call him weak.
Why play Mages? - Jonathan Meer - 12-13-2011
Neither is Veigar, if you're going to use your mana to harass. Neither Nasus nor Veigar (generally) should use their mana to harass, though.
Until they sort out their mana regen problem.
Why play Mages? - Rafael - 12-13-2011
Well, Veigar is still garbage. Even with the mana "tweaks" not buffs I still can't even spam Q on CD to last hit, which he really, really needs especially given the insane cooldown it has early on.
Why play Mages? - Jonathan Meer - 12-13-2011
Nasus Siphoning Strike CD: 8/7/6/5/4
Veigar Baleful Strike CD: 8/7/6/5/4
And those mana numbers are completely buff. Three of his four spells have full-on mana cost reductions, while his fourth has mana-cost reduction for the early levels (when you really need it anyway). He will 100% be a thing now.
Why play Mages? - Kaden - 12-14-2011
Jonathan Meer Wrote:You could say the same thing about Nasus. The key difference is that Nasus is popular and Veigar is not.
Both are counter-pick champs.
The difference is actually that only Veigar is the counter pick.
Nasus can straight carry a game without having to be a counter-pick. You can pick an early Nasus and the only thing the enemy can do is pick someone who will make it harder for you to lane. There's a degree of inevitability to the impact Nasus has on a game. That he has built-in Armor reduction and significant magic damage off of his ult also means that enemy itemization has less to do with his performance.
An early Veigar in a game just means the enemy picks low-AP casters like Ryze or Kennen. Veigar's kit is also more dependent on items than Nasus because he has no persistent damage to supplement his cooldowns. If he doesn't kill someone in about one combo, he's probably fucked. Additionally, his ultimate scales off of the enemy's items which becomes unreliable and can easily backfire.
Veigar's a counter. Nasus is a carry.
EDIT: I think Veigar is totally viable, for the record, but to work him into a team I think you'd need to mix up the established meta a bit. Do something like run Veigar + Soraka in a bot lane and have an Ez or Corki solo mid. Veigar does get a massive spike in burst when he hits 6, so it's understandable to want to get there as fast as possible, but safely farming is more important.
Why play Mages? - Jonathan Meer - 12-14-2011
(I SAY THIS AS SOMEONE WHO HAS ROUGHLY 22% OF YOUR TOTAL WINS, so like feel free to 'pfft')
Nasus might be somewhat more stable than Veigar in terms of inevitability, but if you pick an early Nasus, you're going to get punished HARD for it. Teemo = gg, Tristana = gg, Caitlyn = gg. Hell, Trist might be plain-old hard counter to Nasus, what with her escape, knockback and heal-reduction. Not a damn thing he can do about it.
Why play Mages? - Kaden - 12-14-2011
Pfft.
My point was that Nasus should be seen as a carry or bruiser. Not a counter-pick.
Why play Mages? - Mr. Zhu - 12-14-2011
Veigar is a great AP Carry. How anyone would think otherwise is beyond me. I agree that he is very dependent on itemization, but let's be fair which AP carry doesn't? What is an Annie without any AP going to do that a Veigar can't do? If you take items out of consideration, I would argue that Veigar does the most amount of Flat damage just with his E-W-R combo than any other AP carry out there (This is not proven of course, just an estimation). The reason you cringe when someone plays him on your team, or laugh out loud when your enemy team has one is because he's a caster with a VERY HIGH learning curve and most people suck with him. Veigar's stun is a skillshot, and it takes thousands of games to perfect the art. His range on W Q and R are all very good and he's definitely capable of constantly casting to do damage in a team fight, and not just gibbing one person and useless for the rest of the fight.
He's a sleeper caster and honestly we're just waiting for some tournament level player to main him so that he gets the recognition he deserves. Much like Trundle, Lee Sin, Cassiopeia, Gragas and Katarina, who at one point everyone thought sucked, if someone with the profile of Scarra, Salce, xPeke or Shushei begins to rape as him and pick him in tournaments people will hop on the bandwagon. All the tier-lists are just one persons perspective on champions and should by no means be treated as a bible.
Why play Mages? - Kaden - 12-14-2011
Veigar takes more coordination and skill to pull off his complete burst than most other casters. That's why he isn't played. Why risk completely missing two of your skills when you can just pick someone like Kassadin or Annie and just click someone to get the same amount of damage?
The other side of that is Veigar, literally, out-damages any other caster when dealing with AP-itemized targets. Suddenly he goes from needing a full combo to just needing his ultimate.
It's a matter of efficiency. Most other casters more efficiently deal damage. That's why he doesn't get played.
EDIT: His cage is amazing, regardless, that should never be overlooked. The problem with it is that it can very easily bait your own team into going in at the wrong time or on the wrong target (yes, with "ideal" coordination it wouldn't happen, but even the pros make non-optimal plays so stuf) and that it's on a pretty long cooldown. That said, someone who knows exactly how to use that stun can just wreck a game.