The epic Freiza vs Goku debate

[Kirano]

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura

Originally posted by Bulma

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
Toriyama always has two characters that are of equal power fight in the end.

KKx10 Goku = final form Freiza
KKx20 Goku = half-power final form Freiza
SSJ Goku = full power final form Freiza

The plot dictates the winner.

Not to mention SS2 Gohan = Ultimate Perfect Cell

From the beginning:

Kid Goku = Roshi in the 21st tournament
Adolescent Goku = Tenshinhan in the 22nd tournament
Goku = Piccolo in the 23rd tournament

It started getting a little stale, so major fights became more one-sided with pivotal moments being evenly matched

Kaioken x3 Goku's Kamehameha = Vegeta's Gallick Gun
Kaioken x20 Goku = half-powered final form Freiza
SSJ Goku = full power final form Freiza

Now even one-sided battles are old news, so give Goku a heart virus, add Vegeta's time-traveling son that turns into a story arc that's a race-against-the-clock to destroy the reborn Red Ribbon Army topped with a super villain who's essentially every other major character combined that gets beaten by Gohan who takes on the mantle of Hero of Earth, which brings the story full-circle in every way imaginable.

Piccolo/Kami fusion = Android 17
Android 16 = strong Imperfect Cell
Tenshinhan's Shinkikoho = Semi-perfect Cell
SSJ2 Gohan = Ultra Perfect Cell

The series gets an artificial extension with the Buu saga, there are no themes, everything that happens is regurgitated from previous sagas, everyone becomes obscenely powerful and there are no evenly-matched fights, the Spirit Bomb finally kills something, and Toriyama sells the franchise off to ensure that he'll never work on it again. =o

SSJ Goku was stronger than Final Form Freiza 100%
Android 16 = Cell form 2 (the stage before Imperfect)
Tien's Tri Beam did not damage whatsoever to to Imperfect Cell. Only managed to stall him.

There's a lot more evenly matches as well

Take Goten vs Trunk's for example.

[Dehan]

I don't even know anymore lol. I myself would like to rewatch it before I speak on this debate. Or do some research one.

[Pink Underoo]

Originally posted by Bulma
SSJ Goku was stronger than Final Form Freiza 100%
Android 16 = Cell form 2 (the stage before Imperfect)
Tien's Tri Beam did not damage whatsoever to to Imperfect Cell. Only managed to stall him.

There's a lot more evenly matches as well

Take Goten vs Trunk's for example.

When one character is stronger than the other, it pretty much means that the stronger guy is invincible. Full power final form Freiza was able to throw SSJ Goku around for a while, but he just didn't have the stamina that Goku did. It's the same as Kaioken x20 Goku = half-power final form Freiza, and Tenshinhan's Shinkikoho = Cell + Android 17.

Both forms of Cell before he absorbs Android 17 and afterwards are officially considered "Imperfect Cell," but that's just confusing so I use the term semi-perfect to name the middle-form.

I left out the fights during the Buu saga because I don't really like it =X

[Kirano]

I dissagree.

SSJ Goku was only stalling with 100% freiza, until the wish with the dragonballs were made. After that, he pwned Freiza. Yeah, I give brute strength to Freiza, but overall statistics, SSJ Goku was on top.

And again, Tien's Tri Beam did no damage.

[Dehan]

Yea...now that I recall Tein was puting so much of his energy into that Tribeam attack he was about to die right?

And I recall Goku stalling for time during his battle so the group could summon the dragon and make a wish...then he nearly violated Frieza. I think the fight would've gone on longer if Frieza would not have gotten sliced up by his own energy disks which was a very cool attack IMO.

A rip-off of Krillin's technique but still bad-ass.

[Kirano]

Originally posted by Turles
A rip-off of Krillin's technique but still bad-ass.

Not a rip off. The teachniques differ. Krillin's destructo disk cannot be controlled with the motioning of his hands once its released, unlike freiza's, who chased Goku around with it.

[Aero]

Every warrior on DBZ could create disks. All hey had to do was concentrate their ball of energy into one. Vegeta's done it plenty of times.

[Dehan]

Originally posted by Bulma

Originally posted by Turles
A rip-off of Krillin's technique but still bad-ass.

Not a rip off. The teachniques differ. Krillin's destructo disk cannot be controlled with the motioning of his hands once its released, unlike freiza's, who chased Goku around with it.

I just say it's a rip-off cause I first saw Krillin use it twice, once on earth and the second time he used it to slice off Frieza's tail. Then I saw it for a third time and that was when Frieza used it but his was way cooler for the fact you stated, i.e being able to control it.

[Nori]

Tien = Poorly used character.

[Pink Underoo]

Originally posted by Bulma
I dissagree.

SSJ Goku was only stalling with 100% freiza, until the wish with the dragonballs were made. After that, he pwned Freiza. Yeah, I give brute strength to Freiza, but overall statistics, SSJ Goku was on top.

And again, Tien's Tri Beam did no damage.

Damage isn't criteria for equal power here. I'm talking about how character struggles translate plot themes into obvious physical violence often by having two "equal" powers collide, sometimes just for a single attack.

Kaioken x20 Goku was equal to half-power final form Freiza for a single attack, but his Kamehameha really only pissed Freiza off and didn't do any significant damage. In this same way, Tenshinhan's Shinkikoho was able to stun Semi-perfect Cell without wounding him. It has to be equal to the opponent, because in all other times throughout the series even if a weak attack lands at point-blank range and it's not blocked it's still completely ineffective (for instance, Kami/Piccolo's attack hit Imperfect Cell at the end of the Piccolo-17 fight and did less than Tenshinhan's Shinkikoho against Semi-perfect Cell).

And full power final form Freiza was going blow-for-blow with SSJ Goku even after the dragon was summoned and used, and Goku didn't try to leave until he saw that Freiza was getting tired. But, up until that point Freiza and Goku were fighting evenly.

[Deo]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori
Tien = Poorly used character.

Fuck yeah. :<