Consolidated Discussion of RPG Mechanics

[Kaden]

Since both the Power-Up poll (which has a definite outcome at this point) and the CA Removal thread are generating feedback, I thought it might be better to have a single place for this stuff to take place. Yeah, the thread title is a little... not good, but it's accurate.

So what we're looking at here is implementing any number of changes (addition, subtraction, and alteration are all reasonable suggestions) that players would like to see to make Chubbs a place where they feel more like they want to write. Obviously there's only so much any given system can do to spur creativity and enthusiasm, but the point is to try.

Some thing that have already been brought up:
-Keeping CA removed
-Reimplementing a variation of CA
-Awarding Power-Ups as the staff judges
-Allowing a mix of purchased and awarded Power-Ups
-A community-based system of grading and awarding
-Relativity based on activity
-Achievements
-"Static events" based on things relevant to the Chubbs world
-Elaboration of Chubbs universe beyond the CNN forum

Please feel free to post comments, concerns, or support for any of the ideas above or any new ideas that come to you. I'll try to keep this thread updated with other things that get suggested.

[Alexander Trafford]

I'm not sure if any of these things will increase activity in the long run. It comes down to whether or not people have the time and motivation to write in general. These things might trigger short term activity (like the reset did, though probably not to that extent since they won't generate the same amount of excitement and we don't have as large of a member base as we did then), but I'm still not sold on them.

This post is pessimistic and probably useless to the discussion at large.

[Jonathan Meer]

We need a hook.

Bringing back canons would definitely be a hook; it would make the site more directly identifiable as DBZ.

Bringing back canons by no means indicates that customs are no more.

[Kaden]

I was really hoping that wouldn't be the first reply. Of course there are things we have no control over. That was plainly acknowledged.

[Jesper]

For the records, in terms of canons or customs, I'd want one or the other, but since it's already basically been said that canons aren't coming back, I don't think it'll be an issue.

[Jonathan Meer]

That was said?

What would it matter if we had both?

[Jesper]

That was said?

What would it matter if we had both?

In one way or another. Typically, when someone says that something "probably" is never going to happen, they're outraged that it was even suggested. I've been told that we're "probably not going back to canons" several times.

As for having both, it's just one of those things that rubs me the wrong way. It's awkward. I honestly don't care either way, as long as a decision is actually made. I don't want to do something right now that will ultimately prove to be useless.

[Sigfried Hunin]

I think that none of these things can HURT. We all seem to be in general agreeal about the issues at hand (in that people aren't declaring these as BAD ideas). Even if they don't make activity skyrocket, it would help make the website and community better as a whole and make it funner to write. So, if they don't work, they don't work but they sure fuck aren't going to LOWER participation. I think that the list you have made above is a damn good cross section of everybody's weighed in opinions, and quite a few of us have dropped in our two cents about how exactly they should work.

If we are searching for specific system mechanics, we need to break down what bits we are trying to decide on and give them each their air time. I think that several of us, if not the majority, have a pretty good handle on gaming balance mechanics.

The only thing that seems to be the kink in the mix is CA. I would have to say that it seems silly (to me) to have a DBZ RPG if you don't have Power Levels. I mean, that's like, the basis of the series' combat. It didn't matter what style or moves you had, it was all about the Power Level. Now, how you plan in implement that is something, or if the writers don't mind drifting away from traditional DBZ archetypes (I don' have strong feelings one way or another).

[Dehan]

I think that none of these things can HURT. We all seem to be in general agreeal about the issues at hand (in that people aren't declaring these as BAD ideas). Even if they don't make activity skyrocket, it would help make the website and community better as a whole and make it funner to write. So, if they don't work, they don't work but they sure fuck aren't going to LOWER participation. I think that the list you have made above is a damn good cross section of everybody's weighed in opinions, and quite a few of us have dropped in our two cents about how exactly they should work.

If we are searching for specific system mechanics, we need to break down what bits we are trying to decide on and give them each their air time. I think that several of us, if not the majority, have a pretty good handle on gaming balance mechanics.

The only thing that seems to be the kink in the mix is CA. I would have to say that it seems silly (to me) to have a DBZ RPG if you don't have Power Levels. I mean, that's like, the basis of the series' combat. It didn't matter what style or moves you had, it was all about the Power Level. Now, how you plan in implement that is something, or if the writers don't mind drifting away from traditional DBZ archetypes (I don' have strong feelings one way or another).

This.

Plus besides the reason for people having already established their canon characters in the Chubbs DB universe...I don't see a reason as to not have canons put back into the system.

Like I said in the other thread, let the players who last played the canon control whatever happens to them. Don't want their canons played...cool beans. They want their canons to just be MIA entirely or boss of a company, dojo whatever...cool beans(as long as it's ok with Staff).

Also I think Power Level is a good thing. Just thinking of it brings dbz into mind. Just like I can't hold back a smile or laugh when I heard the word 'Monarch'(Venture Brothers comes to mind...doesn't matter where I am whenever I hear Monarch I have to fight not to crack up).

[Mr. Zhu]

As far as there not being teens who enjoy dbz rping out and about; I know they're out there. They just don't know how to go about searching for a good place to rp outside of IRC servers or other places, and these days more are into Bleach and Naruto more than DBZ.

I do not want to lose the foundation of Chubbs being DBZ. Like Greg said earlier in the Removal thread, I joined Chubbs because I wanted to fly around and blow shit up with energy beams. I don't think it's an option for us to lose the true basis of DBZ within the RPG. I'm open to prototype, but not a complete cross-over. That's just one man's opinion though, one very inactive man lol.

[Orion]

Yeah I'm against canons. It'd be a fad for a month or two for some select people because it's like the good ol' days, but then they'll fall into old habits.

My opinions of things:

-Keeping CA removed
-Reimplementing a variation of CA

I'm easy either way, however I know it to be true that some people find a lot of worth in that CA number, and it would affect their desire to write if it were completely removed. I don't think anyone has said that they would never write if there was CA, so to me it seems like we're affecting productivity to remove it.

Of course, if it's kept in its current state, we have the people who are more concentrated on the game and how strong they are rather than writing. Thus, that's why I think it would be best to bring back CA, but have it merely as a measuring stick. Whoever puts in the most effort can have bragging rights about CA, and IC their character will be stronger than everyone else, but when it comes to where a power level could actually matter, it won't. It would merely be for flavour, allowing scouters to still detect numbers and create scenes where an underdog can still win against a stronger opponent, as long as they write better.

Let me re-write that so it's clear; CA would not affect competition but act as rp fodder. While I understand the points of removing it altogether, I think it's damn weird to have a DBZ RPG where everyone is on the same level.

-Awarding Power-Ups as the staff judges
-Allowing a mix of purchased and awarded Power-Ups

I'd prefer one way or the other here. I'm slightly in favour of staff judged power ups, as many people seem to agree. It feels like it's worth more, people are seeing your writing, etc. However, if that gets the green light, buying powerups I dislike. Even a 1.5x one.

-A community-based system of grading and awarding

A nice idea, but a pipe dream. When people can't even be bothered pumping out a 300 word post once a fortnight, I don't know how much reading they're doing.

-Relativity based on activity

I'll be honest, I wasn't paying attention to this one.

-Achievements

Gimmicky, but fun. If people want them, why not?

-"Static events" based on things relevant to the Chubbs world
-Elaboration of Chubbs universe beyond the CNN forum

Fleshing out the world we have is never a bad idea.

[Dehan]

I do not want to lose the foundation of Chubbs being DBZ. Like Greg said earlier in the Removal thread, I joined Chubbs because I wanted to fly around and blow shit up with energy beams. I don't think it's an option for us to lose the true basis of DBZ within the RPG. I'm open to prototype, but not a complete cross-over. That's just one man's opinion though, one very inactive man lol.

lol I'm with you but I wasn't suggesting a cross-over. I was pointing out that during a momentary surge of 'Let me do some online exploring' I have found active rpgs on Second Life dedicated to Bleach, Naruto and DBZ as well as a Naruto rpg and DBZ rpg on an IRC server.

Like I said. They're out there; we just have to look harder. Also, and this to me will be key to remember and important if we're looking not to drive people off at first glance; we have to be prepared for what could be seen as a 'lack' in quality when it comes to writing.

Some of these folks from what I've seen actually use 'text' or 'leet' speak in rp texts that I've seen...just kind of uh not that good. But could easily be worked on with some encouragement and that old great addition of the roleplay school.

[Mr. Zhu]

lol I'm with you but I wasn't suggesting a cross-over. I was pointing out that during a momentary surge of 'Let me do some online exploring' I have found active rpgs on Second Life dedicated to Bleach, Naruto and DBZ as well as a Naruto rpg and DBZ rpg on an IRC server.

Like I said. They're out there; we just have to look harder. Also, and this to me will be key to remember and important if we're looking not to drive people off at first glance; we have to be prepared for what could be seen as a 'lack' in quality when it comes to writing.

Some of these folks from what I've seen actually use 'text' or 'leet' speak in rp texts that I've seen...just kind of uh not that good. But could easily be worked on with some encouragement and that old great addition of the roleplay school.

Yeah, I mentioned this in my essay in the CA Removal Thread. We generally have an "Elitism" thing that drive others away because they feel their not up to par or they feel intimidated because they're scared of criticism.

[Jonathan Meer]

-A community-based system of grading and awarding

A nice idea, but a pipe dream. When people can't even be bothered pumping out a 300 word post once a fortnight, I don't know how much reading they're doing.

If it is implemented, I will personally comment on every thread submitted for grading for at least the first three months.

[Jesper]

If it is implemented, I will personally comment on every thread submitted for grading for at least the first three months.

I'm good for it too, I think. I pretty much read everything, anyway, at least when things are active.

[Sigfried Hunin]

1. Canon characters are brought back - but as NPCs. Not many people seem to complain about not playing as Thrall in WOW, they're just glad to be able to interact with him. As has been mentioned in most discussions about canon, this will keep the draw of DBZ without newbies being disappointed by Goku being claimed already.

2. Writers are not allowed to be, like, "THIS IS MY NEW CHARACTER HENRY; HE'S VEGETA'S BFF." The bigger canon characters are kept as higher ups in the universe. Writers can discuss them, show them in snippets on the news, have them be grand marshal at a parade, but new characters cannot directly interact with the biggies.

Yes, so long as they follow the canon of Chubbz! If they are going to be around, they should be as they were in previous posts and if possible put their actions through their original writers.

3. As a result, the worlds are CONSIDERABLY more fleshed out. I get the whole "give writers freedom" mentality. That's great. But having concrete structure to the universe gives writers a greater point of inspiration. Also, it helps newbies out. Piper was consistently pestered by me the first week as I kept asking questions about the state of the world, despite the answer usually being "It's up to the writer." Giving a person too much choice can be overwhelming.


[quote=Jarka]
4. Better updating on universal world events. Something like Central City being half destroyed in a saga should be required to be put in a news post if it's going to become world canon. Again, this can just help give writers a burst to get through writers block - a stagnant character might be motivated by worrying if their sister did in an attack on their home city. Non-staff saga rewards and events that unfold later on should require a staff A-OK, of course.

Yeah, I agree with this totally.

5. A new Reputation point system is created. As the characters gain reputation, they gain the ability to interact with more influential NPCs (probably divided into tiers to make like SOMEWHAT easy on the staff). Characters in the top tier of influence would have considerable freedom with how to use the big canon characters due to the fact that they would have considerable pull in the universe.

Call me a minimalist, but this can be clumped with CP/Rpp, job rankings, or completely removed all together. I'm just of the opinion that a larger system might become overly complex and cumbersome.

6. Consequently, a new questing system is introduced. NPCs (written by the staff) offer quests to be taken up by characters. After the completion of the quest (can be taken and completed in a personal storyline, as before), a reward is granted. For lower tier quests, NPCs would reward zeni and, for outstanding performance, reputation points. As the character gained reputation, they would gain access to a new tier of quests offered by more influential NPCs. The highest tier quests from Goku/Vegeta/famous people would require ridiculous effort, but the reward may be considerably ridiculous as well (the quest giver now owes you a favor - you can use them in a personal storyline, you are granted a universal title of nobility, etc.). Lower level quests might be "Deliver this package!" whereas high tier might be "Overthrow this government!".

I don't know if I like the idea of NPC canons dolling out jobs like quest givers in an RPG. It's just decidedly unwritery IMHO. It just seems like it cheapens the experience somehow.

10. A greater reviewing system would be implemented to encourage peer involvement. Similar to what's been already been mentioned without huge game changing effects. The rewards might be access to formerly restricted forums or something. A good critique, by the way, is at least one specific area of improvement/con and one specific thing they did well/pro. None of that generic "I liked it" shit. Each successful critique would merit Community Points, which would reward access to different areas of the forums or the ability to post new threads on OOC or whatever (this might mean a temporary lock out of some popular forums while people build up their CP, and as a result, some dissent at first, but popular forum access would probably be, like, 2 CP). Bad critiques could mean CP would be lost. CP would be degenerate over time.

Pffft, way to steal RPP! XD Jus' kiddin. I like the idea of "on the spot" awards fir participation in addition to reviews.

11. Community Points could also be granted for helpful involvement in site issues. For instance, people who put forth great effort in this thread (even if their ideas were not used) could be granted CP from staff. Perhaps staff could also (very, very rarely) grant character rewards for extensive effort in CP.

[quote=Jarka]
13. Power level - this would be a crazy mishmash. I only just thought of it, so it's pretty rough as I haven't stewed it over like a good designer. PL would be introduced. Word count could increase your PL up to, like, 2000 (at about the increase rate of CA). Each time a powerup was granted by staff, the character would also get a boost to their PL. PL bonuses could be rewards for sagas or quests as well. In addition, a percentage (maybe, like, a quarter) of the PL could be influenced by the Writerscore, Reputation, etc. As a result, only the most involved members increase their power level, and it can't just be done by spam writing - you have to be rewarded for good effort and community involvement as well.

I feel like this needs to be cut down a bit. I think that things being so complex is unfitting for the writing community. I'm not saying it's a bad idea by any means, and I do honestly like it, but I just don't know if it has a place here.

14. There is a leaderboard page. It is divided into sections:
[INDENT]1: Reputation - 10 highest reputation characters[/INDENT]
[INDENT]2: Writerscore - 10 highest achievement earners[/INDENT]
[INDENT]3: Community - 10 "most involved" community members[/INDENT]
[INDENT]4: Spam Writers - 10 highest word counts (formerly CA-ish)[/INDENT]
[INDENT]5: Power - 10 most powerful, based on power level[/INDENT]
[INDENT]6: Et cetera[/INDENT]
Clicking on a section would take the user to the full list for that section so they could see where they stand overall. More sections gives people more options for personal motivation - maybe somebody doesn't give a shit about reputation, but loves community involvement and wants to be number 1.

This is too much crap I feel. I know structure is good an' all, but this is a bit much I feel. I understand where you're going with it in that people would want to excel in different areas and stuff, but this is a bit system heavy.


EDIT: I am not going to fix this.

[Sigfried Hunin]

If it is implemented, I will personally comment on every thread submitted for grading for at least the first three months.

I read most of everything and I really like giving feedback. It just doesn't really seem to be something people DO honestly, so I rarely put my opinions down. If I got something in RETURN for it... All the damn time.

[Orion]

If it is implemented, I will personally comment on every thread submitted for grading for at least the first three months.

Don't get me wrong. I believe this is exactly how Chubbs should operate (insofar as people reading/critiquing everyone's work). If people do it, I think it's the best idea ever.

[Kaden]

I would have to say that it seems silly (to me) to have a DBZ RPG if you don't have Power Levels. I mean, that's like, the basis of the series' combat. It didn't matter what style or moves you had, it was all about the Power Level. Now, how you plan in implement that is something, or if the writers don't mind drifting away from traditional DBZ archetypes (I don' have strong feelings one way or another).

I generally agree. I prefer having some sort of "Power Level" mechanic for a DBZ RPG, though I understand not everyone agrees.

I said in another thread I would post of the roughs I've come up with while turning some of these issues over in my head. Here they are:

Unified Currency
The basic idea behind this one is pretty simple: players accumulate one thing, let's call it Prestige, and that is used to make any purchases that affect their character. Increasing "Power Level" would be done by expending Prestige. Buying items would be done by expending Prestige. Any form of Technique or Custom Tech would require the expenditure of Prestige.

One of the things we tried to do with the current system is reward "quantity" with XP and "quality" with zeni via the Profession system. That really didn't work out. Zeni was perceived as either being too hard to get or not worth the effort of accumulating. By significantly scaling back the amount of Prestige earned per post and augmenting that with Prestige rewarded through Quests and such we avoid disconnects like the one between XP and Zeni. This also allows players to determine what Prestige is worth to them (a Custom Tech vs some cool new item, for example). It could even be tied into the PP System, forcing players to expend Prestige in order to activate a power-up and gain the upper hand in a fight.

Regulated XP Rewards
If anyone plays or is familiar with White Wolf RPGs, think the XP system from those. Players are awarded a few XP points at a time (like, 1 or 2) and then spend them to make purchases. We'd probably standardize Custom Techs to be 1 or 2 XP and keep Techniques with standardized prices. Power-Level, if we chose to incorporate it would probably be based directly on XP earned. 1 XP = 100 PL or something like that, or we could say that PL has to be purchased, similar to the Unified Currency concept.

The pros and cons in this system seem a lot more risky to me than something like Unified Currency. Obviously players have to be willing to invest a lot into their characters and they need to be willing to see the worth in a relatively minimalistic system. Long-term, though, the benefits are significant. Power creep was a serious problem in the last system and its even been evident in this one. By having a form of currency that is handed out in a very regulated manner we can keep a much closer eye on how characters are developing, statistically, in relation to the rest of the RPG.

Relative Returns
Things like strength and speed and intelligence are all judged on a relative scale. If everyone in the world had the same IQ, no one would be "smarter" than anyone else. Someone is only "strong" because there are people who are "weak." That idea is something that I've always been interested in incorporating, but have never really pushed because it's either very math intensive (which generally makes for much slower updates) or its very code intensive.

The idea is that people still earn CA per-post, but at varying rates depending on where they fall in the hierarchy of power. Here's how it would play out with some mostly-random numbers. Lets say you have a bunch of active players who's CA max at 5,000 and min at 500. The average of those is 2750. So anyone with around the average CA (let's say we give a 250 margin, so anywhere from 3,000-2500) earns the base amount of XP when they post -- so if they post an RP worth 10 XP, they get 10 XP. Someone with a CA towards the bottom (same 250 margin, so 500~750) would receive a significant multiplier to their XP -- so if they posted an RP worth 10 XP, they'd receive something like 25. And, finally, someone at the top would basically be penalized, receiving, say, 25% of their XP -- so they'd post for 10 and receive 2.5 or something.

The pros and cons of this system should be pretty obvious. It promotes overall game health by attempting to keep things as "fair" or "even" as possible, but it definitely penalizes those who are simply more active. The other side of that is that people who are just starting or just getting back into their character, hopefully, feel more rewarded (which they should, because they are) and that, in turn, would hopefully make them feel more interested in developing and continuing their character.

---

So there's some food for thought. Just some ideas to get things rolling and maybe spur some discussion.

[Celena]

A community based system on grading and rewarding sounds good but it just wont last in the long run. The only way i see it working is if we reward critques for giving good c&c. That alone will motivate people to give reviews.