Consolidated Discussion of RPG Mechanics

[Kaden]

A community based system on grading and rewarding sounds good but it just wont last in the long run. The only way i see it working is if we reward critques for giving good c&c. That alone will motivate people to give reviews.

Part of the original proposition was that people wouldn't be able to get graded rewards unless they themselves have graded someone else.

Obviously we'd need to find a way to make that governing design principal work smoothly, but it would be there in some form.

[Orion]

I don't mind the unified currency idea. Yet, I still see an issue with power levels. Some people will pump points into it to be the strongest, then people will stop writing when they're way too weak to compete.

[Jonathan Meer]

*Consolidated

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There needs to be a decay to PL. If that's what you mentioned in the relativity of your earlier post, Mario, then I agree with it (to be honest, I didn't quite follow it).

If you write actively and consistently with significant quality, your PL will be tippy-top, with the diminishing returns you describe.

If you don't write actively, or if your writing quality takes a turn for the worse, your PL will dwindle (though it can be raised again through more activity/quality).

Can't remember if I mentioned this simile earlier; it'd be like muscles. There's a limit to how strong a human being can be. Working out provides diminishing returns. If you don't keep up on it, your muscles atrophy. If you do a half-ass workout after being all big and buff, your muscles will atrophy to a point, but will not dwindle all the way.

It's exactly like that.

[Kaden]

I don't mind the unified currency idea. Yet, I still see an issue with power levels. Some people will pump points into it to be the strongest, then people will stop writing when they're way too weak to compete.

You don't think that's a reasonable trade-off considering they won't have any Techniques, Custom Techs, or Items?

[Jonathan Meer]

I like the unified currency idea, for the record. A lot. Particularly, I like the requirement of a 'fee' for activating a power-up.

SOMETHING needs to be done about the Zeni.

[Kaden]

There needs to be a decay to PL. If that's what you mentioned in the relativity of your earlier post, Mario, then I agree with it (to be honest, I didn't quite follow it).

If you write actively and consistently with significant quality, your PL will be tippy-top, with the diminishing returns you describe.

If you don't write actively, or if your writing quality takes a turn for the worse, your PL will dwindle (though it can be raised again through more activity/quality).

Can't remember if I mentioned this simile earlier; it'd be like muscles. There's a limit to how strong a human being can be. Working out provides diminishing returns. If you don't keep up on it, your muscles atrophy. If you do a half-ass workout after being all big and buff, your muscles will atrophy to a point, but will not dwindle all the way.

It's exactly like that.

I see what you've proposed, and Relative Returns as being different takes on the same thing. Both encourage regular activity and punish lethargy, just one does it through positive reinforcement while the other uses negative reinforcement.

In your system, people actively lose what they've gained. With Relative Returns, it takes more work for someone to stay on the top so, while they're not directly punished for not RPing, those below them gain at an increased rate, making it easier for them to overcome those who aren't active.

I've generally found positive reinforcement to produce better results (flies and honey and all that), but that's definitely not to say system is better than the other.

[Orion]

You don't think that's a reasonable trade-off considering they won't have any Techniques, Custom Techs, or Items?

Not really. Some people will buy one or two custom techs and just build into PL.

[Jonathan Meer]

I see what you've proposed, and Relative Returns as being different takes on the same thing...

Ah, like the CPU in Mario Kart.

Gotcha.

[Celena]

*Consolidated

--------------

There needs to be a decay to PL. If that's what you mentioned in the relativity of your earlier post, Mario, then I agree with it (to be honest, I didn't quite follow it).

If you write actively and consistently with significant quality, your PL will be tippy-top, with the diminishing returns you describe.

If you don't write actively, or if your writing quality takes a turn for the worse, your PL will dwindle (though it can be raised again through more activity/quality).

Can't remember if I mentioned this simile earlier; it'd be like muscles. There's a limit to how strong a human being can be. Working out provides diminishing returns. If you don't keep up on it, your muscles atrophy. If you do a half-ass workout after being all big and buff, your muscles will atrophy to a point, but will not dwindle all the way.

It's exactly like that.

Punishing people by subtracting their PL should their standerds drop isn't a good idea, and its something that would put new blood off. If they're bothering to write and are making an effort to stay active why should they be penalized?

[Jonathan Meer]

If you stay active and make an effort to write, you don't get penalized.

[Sigfried Hunin]

I generally agree. I prefer having some sort of "Power Level" mechanic for a DBZ RPG, though I understand not everyone agrees.

I said in another thread I would post of the roughs I've come up with while turning some of these issues over in my head. Here they are:

Unified Currency
The basic idea behind this one is pretty simple: players accumulate one thing, let's call it Prestige, and that is used to make any purchases that affect their character. Increasing "Power Level" would be done by expending Prestige. Buying items would be done by expending Prestige. Any form of Technique or Custom Tech would require the expenditure of Prestige.

One of the things we tried to do with the current system is reward "quantity" with XP and "quality" with zeni via the Profession system. That really didn't work out. Zeni was perceived as either being too hard to get or not worth the effort of accumulating. By significantly scaling back the amount of Prestige earned per post and augmenting that with Prestige rewarded through Quests and such we avoid disconnects like the one between XP and Zeni. This also allows players to determine what Prestige is worth to them (a Custom Tech vs some cool new item, for example). It could even be tied into the PP System, forcing players to expend Prestige in order to activate a power-up and gain the upper hand in a fight.

Regulated XP Rewards
If anyone plays or is familiar with White Wolf RPGs, think the XP system from those. Players are awarded a few XP points at a time (like, 1 or 2) and then spend them to make purchases. We'd probably standardize Custom Techs to be 1 or 2 XP and keep Techniques with standardized prices. Power-Level, if we chose to incorporate it would probably be based directly on XP earned. 1 XP = 100 PL or something like that, or we could say that PL has to be purchased, similar to the Unified Currency concept.

The pros and cons in this system seem a lot more risky to me than something like Unified Currency. Obviously players have to be willing to invest a lot into their characters and they need to be willing to see the worth in a relatively minimalistic system. Long-term, though, the benefits are significant. Power creep was a serious problem in the last system and its even been evident in this one. By having a form of currency that is handed out in a very regulated manner we can keep a much closer eye on how characters are developing, statistically, in relation to the rest of the RPG.

Relative Returns
Things like strength and speed and intelligence are all judged on a relative scale. If everyone in the world had the same IQ, no one would be "smarter" than anyone else. Someone is only "strong" because there are people who are "weak." That idea is something that I've always been interested in incorporating, but have never really pushed because it's either very math intensive (which generally makes for much slower updates) or its very code intensive.

The idea is that people still earn CA per-post, but at varying rates depending on where they fall in the hierarchy of power. Here's how it would play out with some mostly-random numbers. Lets say you have a bunch of active players who's CA max at 5,000 and min at 500. The average of those is 2750. So anyone with around the average CA (let's say we give a 250 margin, so anywhere from 3,000-2500) earns the base amount of XP when they post -- so if they post an RP worth 10 XP, they get 10 XP. Someone with a CA towards the bottom (same 250 margin, so 500~750) would receive a significant multiplier to their XP -- so if they posted an RP worth 10 XP, they'd receive something like 25. And, finally, someone at the top would basically be penalized, receiving, say, 25% of their XP -- so they'd post for 10 and receive 2.5 or something.

The pros and cons of this system should be pretty obvious. It promotes overall game health by attempting to keep things as "fair" or "even" as possible, but it definitely penalizes those who are simply more active. The other side of that is that people who are just starting or just getting back into their character, hopefully, feel more rewarded (which they should, because they are) and that, in turn, would hopefully make them feel more interested in developing and continuing their character.

---

So there's some food for thought. Just some ideas to get things rolling and maybe spur some discussion.

I have a few questions. I love the unified currency program, specially if you can "burn" your currency for things like activating your Power Ups. It makes the whole system much more coherent and simplified, and I'm of the school of thought that in this situation, simplicity is KEY. Full support.

As far as XP rewards goes, how would you get those rewards? Completed threads? Would it be automatic or would a GM have to update it?

I really really like the idea of relative returns, but I DO NOT think it should be tied to XP. XP helps us flesh out our characters and is, at base, the greatest reward. It also allows us to make custom techs etc etc. Taking that away kinda sucks. I petition that, instead of diminishing XP rewards you should instead have a PL curve which is seperate to your XP. Perhaps your PL is equal to the amount of XP you spend on techs or SOMETHING like that, and it gets gradually more and more expensive/harder to get as your PL goes up relative to everyone else. That way you can still get that nice XP reward but you won't be creating a massive chasm in player strength.

[Orion]

Negative reinforcement is a bad idea. We don't have any here at the moment, and we're not exactly active. That wouldn't help it at all.

[Kaden]

I have a few questions. I love the unified currency program, specially if you can "burn" your currency for things like activating your Power Ups. It makes the whole system much more coherent and simplified, and I'm of the school of thought that in this situation, simplicity is KEY. Full support.

As I've been thinking about it, I think Unified Currency is my favorite of the ones I posted.

As far as XP rewards goes, how would you get those rewards? Completed threads? Would it be automatic or would a GM have to update it?

Either staff grading or a community-based grading system.

I really really like the idea of relative returns, but I DO NOT think it should be tied to XP. XP helps us flesh out our characters and is, at base, the greatest reward. It also allows us to make custom techs etc etc. Taking that away kinda sucks. I petition that, instead of diminishing XP rewards you should instead have a PL curve which is seperate to your XP. Perhaps your PL is equal to the amount of XP you spend on techs or SOMETHING like that, and it gets gradually more and more expensive/harder to get as your PL goes up relative to everyone else. That way you can still get that nice XP reward but you won't be creating a massive chasm in player strength.

I think I definitely wrote it out incorrectly. The intent was absolutely for the curve to only affect changes in Power Level. Not XP, or whatever derivation of XP would be used.

[Rem-13]

To bring in what I posted in the other thread,

What effects our acquisition of members needs to be addressed, and I think that is separate from the mechanics, which effect retention.

First things that needs to be looked at: Who are we getting here? How are they finding the site? What do they want out of the site? Who do we want here, and what do we want out of them?

If we are getting anyone its probably from typing DBZ RPG into google. That means a) less and less people are going to be doing that and we have no control over that and b) we are getting people that want to play as a character from DBZ. Most probably aren't doing it for the love of writing, only for the want of acting out a story as a DBZ character with writing as the means. What they get when they come on here now is us saying "make up your own character and write some interactive stories with us! Also, DBZ" This is an instant turn off for a significant percentage.

So something needs to give. We need to either cater the audience we are going to bring in or find away to bring in the audience we want. I have no idea of how to do this, I'm just trying to reaim the thrust of what we are talking about here.

A new system is like an economic stimulus package, a shot in the arm to keep us going but we'll still die the slow death without addressing the core issues.

[Piper Juunanagou]

I just want to say I agree with what Rem about focusing on what gets new people. Sure, we can have a fantastical rehaul and spike activity with old members, but how long is that going to actually hold up? A few months?

I think I’m one of the, what, two or three people who honestly doesn’t seem a problem with the actual mechanics at all. If CA is this horrifying crutch that has shattered activity and driven away the throngs of people who would otherwise have joined these last many months, just jack up the starting value or add diminishing returns (or ‘Relative Returns’). The latter would kind of piss me off a little, me being someone who tries to be active (I blame other sources for my inactivity as of late <_<; ), but I’d probably get over it if it brought more life to this decrepit place. To be rather serious though, I think (and if its just me, well, I’ll stfu and let you all continue dissecting the system) the real problem is that we no longer curtail to people who find this website wanting something DBZ-based. I mean, I found this place because I wanted to be a DBZ character and fly around and blow shit up. If it weren’t for the pseudo-loophole with the customs that allowed me to sort of kinda continue my over-arching Chubbs plot/history with a new face, I probably would be off spending my spare time writing a novel or something, rather than writing stuff that suffers from some much copy-right infringement it isn’t even funny.

I’m of the opinion that we should bring back canon characters (I’m not opposed to also having custom character, because why not?). Sure, that may piss of the people here who wouldn’t want their precious canon characters to risk being defile (don’t point fingers, I wouldn’t want that shit to happen to Seventeen), but if it brings us back to the activity we had ‘back in the day,’ I think it’s worth it. Hell, we have a dual character system. If we let canons back in and one of the four or five really old members who still lurks (no offense to anyone, I’ve spent my own periods lurking) is pissed off, well…you have another character slot to work with.

Now that I’ve spat that all out, I’ll add my opinion in regards to all the system changes. I’m behind making this place more like, simply put, an MMO. I like ideas like achievements and a more dynamic world that’s more visibly DBZ-themed. If we were to keep out canons, I think they should serve an important and visible role to reinforce the notion that this is Chubbs DBZ RPG and not Chubbs Website With Some Tiny Gaming Elements Where People Write Occasionally but Mostly Just Chat and Post Silly Pictures Game (or as I would love to see it style—Chubs WWSTGEWPWOMJCPSPG). I am indifferent to any sort of community-based points. If it helps, fuck yea, dudes! If not, well then its just fluff. In terms of power-ups, I think they should be rewarded, given Chubbs’ history of people getting power ups and it being something they remember. So, uhh, I favor—Achievements, more interesting and active world, re-implementing CA, power-ups being rewarded.

I think I covered all the points, so I’ll go return to being a forum spectre.

[Mr. Zhu]

Chubs WWSTGEWPWOMJCPSPG

Sounds exciting, can we do that? :o

[Orion]

I’m of the opinion that we should bring back canon characters (I’m not opposed to also having custom character, because why not?). Sure, that may piss of the people here who wouldn’t want their precious canon characters to risk being defile (don’t point fingers, I wouldn’t want that shit to happen to Seventeen), but if it brings us back to the activity we had ‘back in the day,’ I think it’s worth it. Hell, we have a dual character system. If we let canons back in and one of the four or five really old members who still lurks (no offense to anyone, I’ve spent my own periods lurking) is pissed off, well…you have another character slot to work with.

I think the idea of canon one slot, custom second slot to be a pretty interesting concept.

[Belle Hibiki]

If I could do anything, it would be:

1) Reducing the rate of XP gain. Perhaps half of what it is now.

2) Make power-ups 'unlockable' - ie. in a saga you can be 'awarded' a power-up, and use it then, but afterward you have to spend the XP to train it. Sort of like how Goku had to train to master SSJ, but people can RP it however they like.

3) If isn't palatable, make power-ups completely reward based, and make sure staff communicates with people prior to getting a power-up to make sure it doesn't fuck their story.

4) Changing the CA formula, which unfortunately is probably impossible, to be something like this:

x = Combat Ability gained per point of XP
y = Current (your) CA
z = Highest CA on the board

if y < (z * 0.8 ) , then CA gained per XP is (x * 2)
if y > or = (z * 0.8 ) , then CA gained per XP is x

In other words, if your CA is below 80% of the highest CA on the board, you get double CA per point of XP. XP still comes at the same rate, so you still need to put in the same amount of effort to buy techs and other crap.

5) Raising the 'floor' of starting CA. A lot of the higher up people are now 10x stronger than newbies. This sucks for newbies. A lot. It takes a ton of effort to even get 1000 CA, much less the 5000 to 'compete.'




But that's me. I like the current system (it's easy to like it when you're near the top), I'm just not inspired to write. However, since it seems like lots of other people don't feel the same way, I'd be willing to embrace a CA-less system, provided we weren't doing anything freaking retarded like allowing 'chiiiieeeeves! to determine who wins what.

An IP change would be fun (I like Bleach), but I agree that it would probably do more harm than good, since I don't think half the people here have even watched/read the series.

[Sigfried Hunin]

Ok, I started writing this whole huge thing about the system and yadda yadda and then I came to the understanding that one of the only reasons I don't write more on this site is because nobody writes with me. It is not a community based writing site other than like, the ONE saga I was in that never finished. I had a blast with that. I was all worried about what other people thought about my writing and I wanted to win lots of awards and all kinds of shit.

I think in the back of my mind all of the things I've been trying to think up to make the system or whatever better was to promote people writing WITH each other. Giving people common goals or events or making things more solid and event based etc etc would all be an attempt to create more interactivity in my little head. That's why I want this. I want it to be fun to write again by writing WITH other people.

So, TLDR: I think system repurposing is entirely tied to making people want to write with/about each other.

[Sigfried Hunin]

lol double post