Questions about proposed changes

[Sigfried Hunin]

Seniority =/= productivity over time

Beyond that correction, I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're saying.

Ok, so basically what I'm saying is that the purchased PL should be a fighter determiner along with writing (obviously writing or you would never fight anyone lawl).

I think that allowing PL to be both purchasable AND the main thing that determines fights has many benefits and is much preferable to making CL the bread winner.

If you have the option of raising your raw skill, buying new items, techs and customs, you will have more control over both the RP development of your character and the OOC context of your writing.

Most people don't RP their characters at the designated, "prescribed" PL that you just get from being here. Victoria RPs lower. In many cases, other RP higher. The WRITER should have control over how much physical might their character has but still have to EARN it.

I don't think that the vast majority of people here would jsut SPAM buying PL. They would round their characters and think of how they wanted to use them and how they interact with the world.

EDIT: Also, by just making CL the thing that decides the winner you're just setting the new system up for the EXACT same thing that this system has. You're giving the win to seniority immediately, right off the bat. If people are given the option to purchase PL then you're giving them the OPTION to allow their seniority to win the fight, but you're also letting them balance their sheer fighting skill with custom techs, items and etc by choosing to spent their hard earned prestige on other things.

[Juno]

After giving it some thought, I rather like this system. A lot. I specifically adore CL, and the ability to be relate it to in-show circumstances, which makes me think this does bring back the Dragon Ball Z feel. The main thing I love about CL, though, is that it keeps techniques and Power Level from rising mutually, but allows the overall strength of a player to rise no matter what you pour your Prestige into.

I'm going to reiterate that I don't like standardizing the costs of custom techs. Greg put it much better than I have, but I liked the sense of achievement from buying an expensively-priced custom technique. An option, perhaps, is to require someone to be at a certain CL for a particularly strong custom tech, but overall, I like the system as is.

[Josh]

Guldo: uber weakling. significant threat because of his techs

case closed @gainst Josh

Poor example, Guildo possessed powers and techniques that far exceed what we allow on Chubbs. He was capable of stopping time and hurting others, and could completely paralyze people which wouldn't end until he was killed.

He also wasn't significantly weaker then Kuririn and Gohan, as he was able to physically injure them- something not possible when fighting an opponent who is stronger than you.

ex: Despite Furiza being only twice as strong as Goku, it still wasn't possible to defeat Fruiza even after using the Genki Dama. Goku had to go SSJ to beat Furiza.

The only time someone weaker ever beats a strong person is either through a completely broken technique, by powering up, or having a secret technique/item that beats the enemy.

While 500 PL folks with huge CL against 5000 PL folks with low CL would be an odd match-up, that's pretty damn exceptional. Just about any system you posit can have the odd 'wtf look at this' exception.

But it's not necessary, and it's not "DB" flavor.

[John Doe]

EDIT: Also, by just making CL the thing that decides the winner you're just setting the new system up for the EXACT same thing that this system has. You're giving the win to seniority immediately, right off the bat. If people are given the option to purchase PL then you're giving them the OPTION to allow their seniority to win the fight, but you're also letting them balance their sheer fighting skill with custom techs, items and etc by choosing to spent their hard earned prestige on other things.

It isn't the main factor. Writing is the main factor. CL is just the "tie-breaker" factor. Someone else feel like explaining better than that?

[Sigfried Hunin]

It isn't the main factor. Writing is the main factor. CL is just the "tie-breaker" factor. Someone else feel like explaining better than that?

I understand that, I'm just saying that I don't think that CL should be the "extra" part of that. Power Level should be. For the reasons listed above.

After giving it some thought, I rather like this system. A lot. I specifically adore CL, and the ability to be relate it to in-show circumstances, which makes me think this does bring back the Dragon Ball Z feel. The main thing I love about CL, though, is that it keeps techniques and Power Level from rising mutually, but allows the overall strength of a player to rise no matter what you pour your Prestige into.

I'm going to reiterate that I don't like standardizing the costs of custom techs. Greg put it much better than I have, but I liked the sense of achievement from buying an expensively-priced custom technique. An option, perhaps, is to require someone to be at a certain CL for a particularly strong custom tech, but overall, I like the system as is.

EDIT: Sigfried, I understand what you're saying, but I don't particularly like it. I don't think that the issue is that people would spam Power Level (though I do not doubt some people would do that). I think the issue is that some people build their characters around techniques, like Guldo, in the show, and to an extent, like Yakon or Babidi. A good example of someone on the site that builds their character around custom techniques is Kaden. Is it fair to say he's not formidable simply because his power level would be considerably lower because he spent his Prestige on techniques that have the ability to be just as devastating as the raw might of someone like, as you described, Vad?

But the problem with this is that, you know, it leads us RIGHT BACK to where we are now. If your CL: goes up by just spending your Prestige it doesn't matter how expensive anything is because you're gonna become more powerful simply by essence of having written and spent your points. That's pretty much a direct parallel to what the current system is only you have to spend the points you earn by writing instead of it just automatically stacking on.

[Jonathan Meer]

I would agree that writing is the 'main factor,' but I CL certainly can't be described merely as a 'tie-breaker.'

PL/CA has not operated in that capacity in the past. If someone is a slightly better writer than someone else, but has a much lower CA, then they lose. Typically. That's how it tends to go.

EDIT: @Sig: Why are you against this system of CL, which allows for the balancing of 'areas of expertise'? In your example of yourself and Vad, you mention that Vad is a bad-ass mofo, but that you have focused upon techs. Is it not conceivable that someone, due to sheer technical prowess, might outmatch someone else, who has raw power but not the technique to back it up?

@Josh: Fair enough on the Guldo.

But, Chubbs has historically diverged from DBZ on points considered necessary for the proper functioning of the RPG as a whole. To this end, for example, humans were set up to be just as capable of success and power as saiya-jin (despite this being completely contrary to the hierarchy presented in DBZ, after say the Raditz saga).

EDIT2: Hell, diminishing returns is another example. There's no real expression of diminishing returns anywhere in the chubbs universe; PLs skyrocket as sagas go past.

[Juno]

I understand that, I'm just saying that I don't think that CL should be the "extra" part of that. Power Level should be. For the reasons listed above.

I edited this into my post above, but I figured it would be seen better if I just re-posted:

Sigfried, I understand what you're saying, but I don't particularly like it. I don't think that the issue is that people would spam Power Level (though I do not doubt some people would do that). I think the issue is that some people build their characters around techniques, like Guldo, in the show, and to an extent, like Yakon or Babidi. A good example of someone on the site that builds their character around custom techniques is Kaden. Is it fair to say he's not formidable simply because his power level would be considerably lower because he spent his Prestige on techniques that have the ability to be just as devastating as the raw might of someone like, as you described, Vad?

[Josh]

I would agree that writing is the 'main factor,' but I CL certainly can't be described merely as a 'tie-breaker.'

PL/CA has not operated in that capacity in the past. If someone is a slightly better writer than someone else, but has a much lower CA, then they lose. Typically. That's how it tends to go.

Yes, ideally the greater the gap between two people the less important writing will become. But at the same time, that doesn't mean someone who posts a shitty throw away post, or doesn't post at all in a saga is going to be given a pass because they are many times more powerful than there opponent.

Sigfried, I understand what you're saying, but I don't particularly like it. I don't think that the issue is that people would spam Power Level (though I do not doubt some people would do that). I think the issue is that some people build their characters around techniques, like Guldo, in the show, and to an extent, like Yakon or Babidi. A good example of someone on the site that builds their character around custom techniques is Kaden. Is it fair to say he's not formidable simply because his power level would be considerably lower because he spent his Prestige on techniques that have the ability to be just as devastating as the raw might of someone like, as you described, Vad?

Those are all horrible examples. Guldo, Yakon and Babidi had abilities and techniques that won't fly, they are way too powerful.

They also died because people with higher power levels killed them.

[Juno]

Yes, ideally the greater the gap between two people the less important writing will become. But at the same time, that doesn't mean someone who posts a shitty throw away post, or doesn't post at all in a saga is going to be given a pass because they are many times more powerful than there opponent.

Exactly. The other person is the better writer, so they should be rewarded. I'm not saying they should win - quite the opposite, I think that realistically, they should lose - but they should be able to do something, whether it be breaking the stronger opponent's arm, or escaping without being seriously injured.

[Jonathan Meer]

Yes, ideally the greater the gap between two people the less important writing will become. But at the same time, that doesn't mean someone who posts a shitty throw away post, or doesn't post at all in a saga is going to be given a pass because they are many times more powerful than there opponent.

Right right. Agreed.

[Sigfried Hunin]

Poor example, Guildo possessed powers and techniques that far exceed what we allow on Chubbs. He was capable of stopping time and hurting others, and could completely paralyze people which wouldn't end until he was killed.

He also wasn't significantly weaker then Kuririn and Gohan, as he was able to physically injure them- something not possible when fighting an opponent who is stronger than you.

ex: Despite Furiza being only twice as strong as Goku, it still wasn't possible to defeat Fruiza even after using the Genki Dama. Goku had to go SSJ to beat Furiza.

The only time someone weaker ever beats a strong person is either through a completely broken technique, by powering up, or having a secret technique/item that beats the enemy.
.

EXACTLY. I think if you just let people BUY THEIR OWN N PL you can have a system that says, "HEY. PL IS LAW. (Also writing)," without totally fucking new people over OR fucking the vets who have earned it over. It'll also stay completely DBZ canon.

[Sigfried Hunin]

@Sig: Why are you against this system of CL, which allows for the balancing of 'areas of expertise'? In your example of yourself and Vad, you mention that Vad is a bad-ass mofo, but that you have focused upon techs. Is it not conceivable that someone, due to sheer technical prowess, might outmatch someone else, who has raw power but not the technique to back it up?

I think that if a person has a shitton of techs and use them cleverly to outmatch and outwit their opponent then they wouldn't be in a direct fight with them. I mean, if Sigfried tried to directly assault Vad (who in this particular scenario has a much higher PL, and Sig has many custom techs) he would lose.

Writing is still a main factor of what goes on so if the person grading the fight is like, "Oh wow that's really clever and good writing on that loser Sig's part" then he could say that he won. However, if the writing was about equal then Vad would be like, "LOL DIE BITCH" and blow him up.

You would be CHOOOOOSSSSIIIING to have a lower PL in EXCHANGE for having a lot of techs. It's a personal choice. You would be accepting "Hey, I'm gonna have a lot of techs and a lower PL so I have a higher chance of losing a fight."

[Josh]

@Josh: Fair enough on the Guldo.

But, Chubbs has historically diverged from DBZ on points considered necessary for the proper functioning of the RPG as a whole. To this end, for example, humans were set up to be just as capable of success and power as saiya-jin (despite this being completely contrary to the hierarchy presented in DBZ, after say the Raditz saga).

EDIT2: Hell, diminishing returns is another example. There's no real expression of diminishing returns anywhere in the chubbs universe; PLs skyrocket as sagas go past.

Yes Chubbs diverges from DBZ, but people have been complaining about flavor and as it is we are moving even further away. Not only that but PL is what determines the strength, speed, defense, and KI available to someone based on the stat system.

Characters with high PL are going to be so fast and strong that those who don't increase their PL but instead purchase items and techniques are going to be sitting ducks.

It doesn't matter if you have 10 variations of the Kamehameha if your opponent is so fast that you can't even see him, or you can't put enough power behind your technique because your PL is pathetic to actually hurt someone.

[Juno]

Those are all horrible examples. Guldo, Yakon and Babidi had abilities and techniques that won't fly, they are way too powerful.

They also died because people with higher power levels killed them.

The power of the examples doesn't particularly matter, in my opinion, as nobody has the power level of Goku, therefore, this is all exponentially relative.

Your second point leads me to my point about keeping the Custom Tech system we have now. If Yakon, for example, were a character in this system. Let's say he used Prestige to buy a technique that "defined his character" called Super Mega Awesome Ki Absorption. Of course, that doesn't raise his CL much because it's only one technique, but because custom tech costs aren't standardized, it's mega expensive because it's mega powerful.

He fights Goku, who has taken time to buy more PL, which is standardized, which would raise Goku's CL. Goku has a higher CL overall because he's spent it on smaller, less expensive things, while Yakon only has one technique and a low CL, because he didn't have much Prestige to spend on PL. Yakon could then give Goku a really hard time because his Custom Tech is super powerful, but Goku would still end up winning because his CL is higher. This is assuming the quality of their writing is equal.

EDIT: Let me just say that because exchanging PL for techs means that I would lose the fight in Sigfried's world, I'd have to think very hard about purchasing any techs whatsoever. It doesn't seem fair that I put work into defining my character with techniques, but I'm sacrificing victory to do it. It's like saying a Mage has no chance of beating a Warrior in WoW, which isn't true.

[Josh]

The power of the examples doesn't particularly matter, in my opinion, as nobody has the power level of Goku, therefore, this is all exponentially relative.

Your second point leads me to my point about keeping the Custom Tech system we have now. If Yakon, for example, were a character in this system. Let's say he used Prestige to buy a technique that "defined his character" called Super Mega Awesome Ki Absorption. Of course, that doesn't raise his CL much because it's only one technique, but because custom tech costs aren't standardized, it's mega expensive because it's mega powerful.

He fights Goku, who has taken time to buy more PL, which is standardized, which would raise Goku's CL. Goku has a higher CL overall because he's spent it on smaller, less expensive things, while Yakon only has one technique and a low CL, because he didn't have much Prestige to spend on PL. Yakon could then give Goku a really hard time because his Custom Tech is super powerful, but Goku would still end up winning because his CL is higher. This is assuming the quality of their writing is equal.

Except you can't increase your power level using absorbtion, you can only recover your ki or use the absorbed ki to fuel an attack. Also how much you absorb and how fast you absorb it depends on your focus which is determined by your power level.

Essentially with your 500 PL with your super duper Ki absorption would be insignificant against someone who's got a 2500 pl and is running circles around you while you try to aim your technique and suck in their energy.

And he hits you so hard that it breaks bones.

[Sigfried Hunin]

PSS: Once again, I'mma point out that if you base your strength of of CL, regardless of all the fluff and techs and all that other shit we're arguing (LOL), you might as well just keep CA as it is.

If you gain CL as you write it is only marginally different than what we have now.

[Dehan]

I have read through the thread several times and I am confused. But it'll probably clear up once(if) everything is implemented. Things seem more complicated than I thought they would be but I think it's just me and my current disability to concentrate read and comprehend stuff.

Edit: Also, canons or no?

[Juno]

Except you can't increase your power level using absorbtion, you can only recover your ki or use the absorbed ki to fuel an attack. Also how much you absorb and how fast you absorb it depends on your focus which is determined by your power level.

Essentially with your 500 PL with your super duper Ki absorption would be insignificant against someone who's got a 2500 pl and is running circles around you while you try to aim your technique and suck in their energy.

And he hits you so hard that it breaks bones.

The technicalities of ki absorption are not up for debate.

The idea is that the technique would still give the higher power level person a hard time because it's powerful, and it is assumed the person has spent a good deal of energy perfecting it (ie, at the extent of physical prowess).

Sure, Spirit Bomb might not've killed Frieza, because Frieza was powerful. But you can't tell me it didn't hurt him in the slightest, and in a system where, exponentially, the characters are generally weaker than those in the DBZ canon, techniques have the potential to hurt more.

[Juno]

PSS: Once again, I'mma point out that if you base your strength of of CL, regardless of all the fluff and techs and all that other shit we're arguing (LOL), you might as well just keep CA as it is.

If you gain CL as you write it is only marginally different than what we have now.

I think the idea is to base physical strength off of PL, but make sure that Techniques still have an impact on overall formidability (I don't think that's a word). At least, that's how I'd like it to be.

[Josh]

The technicalities of ki absorption are not up for debate.

The idea is that the technique would still give the higher power level person a hard time because it's powerful, and it is assumed the person has spent a good deal of energy perfecting it (ie, at the extent of physical prowess).

Sure, Spirit Bomb might not've killed Frieza, because Frieza was powerful. But you can't tell me it didn't hurt him in the slightest, and in a system where, exponentially, the characters are generally weaker than those in the DBZ canon, techniques have the potential to hurt more.

Yeah they aren't, but it's those mechanics that are going to make it impossible for someone with shit for PL to beat someone with a high PL. Not only that but we can't exactly tweak techniques to give that advantage because then they will become broken in the hands of people with high PL.

A person with a high PL and absorption would utterly destroy a technique user because they would just siphon the guys PL in a short period of time.

Spirit Bomb barely hurt Furiza, even after fighting the entire group and taking Goku's most powerful attack Furiza was still able to fight SSJ Goku and hurt him.