The Like/Hate Thread

[Nori]

You can still Pug previous tiers, Belle, so I fail to see how that even ties into the subject. Also, if your in a small guild, you can't simply replace people. If people can do raids just as easily with a guild or without, then what is the point of having a guild? Why not just stay by yourself and pug everything, and have the potential to be better geared then people in Guilds? The game is supposed to be about communities, like every mmo, and pugging encourages being a lone shark.

Once again, I'd like to state that making shared lockins is a smart business plan for Blizzard, as it makes going through content slower.

Also, to Kaden. Pugging was not a option. It was a needed. If you didn't pug, you'd start to fall behind in gear. If I didn't run 10 man pugs with my 25 man guild, I wouldn't gear up twice as fast, and would fall behind in the race for epic lootz. By removing it they not only brought back the fact that guilds are important. I don't have to worry about people fucking over my guild anymore because they are selfish bastards, or at least, not as much.

Also, I'd like to state again that the majority of the players don't give a flying fuck, or at least enough to complain.

You not playing wow is very relevant. Because you don't know how it effects the players. You assume it's taking away from the community, when in fact, it's bringing it back together. Pugging wasn't needed. If you still want to pug, you can. You just can't perform the same raid twice a week via pugging.

[Dehan]

Hate: This fucking heat. Fuck it right up the ass.

[Kaden]

You not playing wow is very relevant. Because you don't know how it effects the players. You assume it's taking away from the community, when in fact, it's bringing it back together. Pugging wasn't needed. If you still want to pug, you can. You just can't perform the same raid twice a week via pugging.

Yup. That was the expected response.

If you're not going to see the conversation for what it actually is, then there's no point in me wasting my time. I'm out.

EDIT: And, for the record, I've played plenty of WoW. Definitely enough to understand the ramifications (or, specifically, the lack thereof) of this kind of decision. You deciding I don't because you didn't think I played was another point I was going to make. Doesn't really matter now, though.

[Nori]

Yup. That was the expected response.

If you're not going to see the conversation for what it actually is, then there's no point in me wasting my time. I'm out.

EDIT: And, for the record, I've played plenty of WoW. Definitely enough to understand the ramifications (or, specifically, the lack thereof) of this kind of decision. You deciding I don't because you didn't think I played was another point I was going to make. Doesn't really matter now, though.

U mad?

Seriously though, I never said "stfu u don't play wow" like you think I did, apparently. I was saying you don't know how it's effected the game. Did you play for more then two months, raiding, in wotlk? Did you raid for a few months during any expansion?

Even during your "I played" statement, you fail to testify any actual experience with the game. I never stated your opinion wasn't relevant. I stated that, to my knowledge, you were blowing something out of proportion because you didn't have inner game knowledge of the discussion at hand. The game in my opinion is a massive multi-player game. Warcraft uses guilds to accomplish this. By pugging you encourage people to come together once a week, maybe a few more, whom rarely, if ever, have met. These people are more prone to by dicks to each other, ninja, whatever, because of virtually no repercussions. After said raid, they do their own thing for a week, instead of joining in community based activities (via raiding or pvp).

It promotes a single player mindset for a game that was developed as a multi-player game. Now if you just pug say, 25 mans to get more loot because your guild does 10 mans, I can feel your pain. However from a business perspective it makes more sense to now have a individual run through the same raid twice a week and gear up quicker then Blizzard can put out more raid content.

Now I'm no expert, and no oldie (at least to Vad, Belle, or Ashe), but I raided partly through BC, through Wrath, and through Cata. So I know what pugging is, and the negative and positive effects on the game as a whole. I've seen what it's done to the game through not months, but years. It's my opinion that it's good that you can't do a raid twice a week anymore, and that's just it; it's my opinion. You obviously don't agree, and you apparently think your talking to a brick wall.

That being said.

Hate: Fighting games. I get so frustrated because you have to be cheap to do well.

[Kaden]

U mad?

Nope.

I'm just not going to continue a conversation with someone who's not responding to any of the points actually being made. You basically said "you haven't played enough WoW" and haven't said anything else of substance.

Go back and look at your posts. I hope you don't think you've been expressing an "opinion" this whole time.

Until then, I stand by the fact it's not important.

There's more, but that was the fastest. You're trying to tell other people what should be important to them in the game. And you're stating it as a fact.

L. O. L.

[Nori]

Nope.

I'm just not going to continue a conversation with someone who's not responding to any of the points actually being made. You basically said "you haven't played enough WoW" and haven't said anything else of substance.

Go back and look at your posts. I hope you don't think you've been expressing an "opinion" this whole time.

There's more, but that was the fastest. You're trying to tell other people what should be important to them in the game. And you're stating it as a fact.

L. O. L.

Please read my post, Mario. I explained why I believe that way, and you simply flamebait. Trying to tear me apart with a attitude just makes you look foolish. Address my points in the last post unless you are done. Which I'm sure we are. <3

[Kaden]

Please read my post, Mario. I explained why I believe that way, and you simply flamebait. Trying to tear me apart with a attitude just makes you look foolish. Address my points in the last post unless you are done. Which I'm sure we are. <3

The "lol" was unnecessary. I do apologize for that, but how is "u mad?" less flamebaiting than anything I've said?. Otherwise, though, there aren't any points to address in your post. Either I prove I played WoW to an extent that you're satisfied with or I'm just turning this into something it's not. Since I already made a statement that I have sufficient experience to be able to comment on this topic and you didn't believe it, why should I do so again? Best-case scenario, I waste time restating something I've already stated and, worst-case scenario, you continue to not believe me. Either way, nothing to address there.

Your PUG experience has apparently been radically different than mine. Think grouping with new people who play and act in various different from what you're used to is an integral part of the game.

You've said that you had to PUG or you couldn't be with your guild. Now you have to guild or you can't raid. That's no better. It forces people into doing something that they weren't actually forced to before (no, the argument "but the rest of my guild out-geared me" is not a valid argument to me; that's you choosing to be with a guild that imposes more stringent standards than you can keep up with, not the game making that choice for you).

You can continue to say I'm trying to tear you apart, or flamebait or that I'm just looking foolish, but the fact is that you've been very inconsistent with your own stance. You started with factual statements about how PUGing was an abomination and then back-peddled to just stating your opinion to make it look like I'm being overly-aggressive in my side of the argument.

I have not held a single negative emotion towards you as a person during this conversation, though I know I tend to be overly-blunt and that, in turn, is regularly misconstrued as rudeness. I enjoy talking about game design philosophies and decisions and Blizzard is making a bad one.

[Vad]

Or you can call a character witness.

"Kaden has played WoW. He knows' what he's talking about." ~ Vad

/humor

Laugh ;.;

[Nori]

The "lol" was unnecessary. I do apologize for that, but how is "u mad?" less flamebaiting than anything I've said?. Otherwise, though, there aren't any points to address in your post. Either I prove I played WoW to an extent that you're satisfied with or I'm just turning this into something it's not. Since I already made a statement that I have sufficient experience to be able to comment on this topic and you didn't believe it, why should I do so again? Best-case scenario, I waste time restating something I've already stated and, worst-case scenario, you continue to not believe me. Either way, nothing to address there.

Your PUG experience has apparently been radically different than mine. Think grouping with new people who play and act in various different from what you're used to is an integral part of the game.

You've said that you had to PUG or you couldn't be with your guild. Now you have to guild or you can't raid. That's no better. It forces people into doing something that they weren't actually forced to before (no, the argument "but the rest of my guild out-geared me" is not a valid argument to me; that's you choosing to be with a guild that imposes more stringent standards than you can keep up with, not the game making that choice for you).

You can continue to say I'm trying to tear you apart, or flamebait or that I'm just looking foolish, but the fact is that you've been very inconsistent with your own stance. You started with factual statements about how PUGing was an abomination and then back-peddled to just stating your opinion to make it look like I'm being overly-aggressive in my side of the argument.

I have not held a single negative emotion towards you as a person during this conversation, though I know I tend to be overly-blunt and that, in turn, is regularly misconstrued as rudeness. I enjoy talking about game design philosophies and decisions and Blizzard is making a bad one.

I admit the u mad part was not needed, but that's why I put the just kidding right after. I thought it was needed as a joke, although I knew it would detract from the conversation.

The thing is, even if I hate it, you CAN still PUG. If you don't want to join with a guild, you can PUG that very same raid with other people. Hell, most of the time Baradin Hold is run, it is Pugged (or at least a few members). Baradin Hold is equal to the one boss raid from wotlk. It's name escapes me.

Virtually the only thing it made you unable to do was to raid with your guild, then pug the same version of a raid on a lower or higher man difficulty. Which, while we can debate if it's a bad design on Blizzards part, makes complete sense from a business perspective. Bored players = people who move on to play other games. If you can entice people longer with content then they can continue to come out with said content within the same periods as before, with happier players.

My experience with Pugs is mixed. More often then not I don't join them simply because of a fear (a fear that has been proven way to many times), of failure because of a newbie. Now I understand this isn't fair, as we all were new at some point, but when your sitting down for hours to complete content you've done dozens of times before, you want it to be as smooth as possible. However, I will contend I have met some cool people this way, as well.

But I still hold to the fact that it removes a form of server unity that is found in guilds. If you have to do everything with guilds, it makes you want to work that much harder for the guild. It's sort of a hive mind, and it's exciting to see people put all their effort into a guild, instead of just themselves. Pugging is the other way around.

[Super Buu]

I'd be convinced Nori was just trolling if the posts weren't so long.

[Dehan]

I consider all WoW posts troll related...cause I don't know WHAT THE FUCK YOU GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT! God damn.

I still hate this fucking heat. The pool served no need. It was like a fucking hot tub.

Like: Dragon Age Ultimate Edition and getting DA2 for nearly free. Also love my si buying me two video games tomorrow. Heavy Rain and LA Noire perhaps?

[Belle Hibiki]

You can still Pug previous tiers, Belle, so I fail to see how that even ties into the subject. Also, if your in a small guild, you can't simply replace people. If people can do raids just as easily with a guild or without, then what is the point of having a guild? Why not just stay by yourself and pug everything, and have the potential to be better geared then people in Guilds? The game is supposed to be about communities, like every mmo, and pugging encourages being a lone shark.

I was pointing out that pugging a previous tier shouldn't bloody matter to anyone. That was to create contrast for the fact that pugging CURRENT PROGRESSION CONTENT in your guild is a dumb thing to do.

And yes, if you're in a small guild, you can replace people. My guild regularly struggles to get our 10-man consistently filled (damn fickle healers), and we bring a new person in from one of our friend lists, or we - ta da! - advertise in trade for a competent pug member. If he's good and not happy with his guild, we offer him a permanent raid spot.

It's not hard at all if people in your guild show a little incentive and gumption.

And did you just imply that puggers can get items in progression faster than guilds?

:nope.avi:

[Kazuya]

when in doubt try to solo!!! i have no idea where the current point is in this wow love fest but there's my two cents. You're not a badass unless you try to solo shit.

[Nori]

Yeah, they could. People who pugged a 25 man and did a 10 man with the guild would obviously progress faster then the one who just did 10 mans with a guild.

[Belle Hibiki]

And why the fuck is that a problem if the guild isn't going to do a 25-man anyway?

You can't even do that anymore. You won't even be able to do that when T12 content drops and people are pugging T11.

[Nori]

And why the fuck is that a problem if the guild isn't going to do a 25-man anyway?

You can't even do that anymore. You won't even be able to do that when T12 content drops and people are pugging T11.

And why is it a problem, period? Why does it make that big of a deal if people do both versions of the same raid? All it does is make the population of the game, in the long run, unhappy.

I don't understand the last part about not being able to do it anymore. I'm sure that's my fault though. I know you can't do that anymore, because you can't do two versions of a raid in a single week. I'm prob just to delirious to understand.

[Belle Hibiki]

I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore. You answered your own question.

[Nori]

I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore. You answered your own question.

qué?

[Jarka]

Hate:

OH GOD SHUT UP ABOUT WOW. There is a Like/Hate thread IN the WOW forum for this. Leave this thread for bitching about our pathetic lives.

Like: S'mores!

[Nori]

Hate: S'mores.

They are pure sugar and good, thus, they must be purged.