Questions about proposed changes

[Rebekah]

This has been brought up again in a different thread. Bump.

[Sigfried Hunin]

Hey guys, remember that time when we all pretty much agreed on system changes and then they NEVER HAPPENED!?

Except for quests. Which are ballin.

[Victoria]

If I recall, staff got halted due to a few things. It's not my place to say what those things were, but we did discuss stuff in the staff forum.

[Kaden]

So, a quick update.

The intention is to remove the profession system in its entirety and automate zeni gain (like XP is now). We'd like people to be able to gain zeni as they post, though we want the gains to be somewhat slow in an effort to keep quests relevant.

There were, initially, technical limitations that prevented us from adding this and, more currently, technical concerns that have kept us from adding it before we have everything stable and backed up.

Given that, what wasn't been added that you would like to see?

[Rafael]

MAGMA CHAMBER FFS ALREADY RIOT YOU &*^& SUCK.

Oh. Uh, turn elasticity and survival into techs, 'cuz I see zero reason why you would ever take those. Body control is similar to elasticity and any tech with elasticity otherwise you could do just as well by just saying you move fast.

"Dhalsim kick: I kick you from like 100 feet away man, it's sweet.
More-awesome-than-Dhalsim-kick-kick: Utilizing a burst of speed, kicks a dude in the face without losing an ability slot.

And survival I mean...what do?
Just random thoughts I had while reviewing the abilities list

[Kaden]

Concerning Unified Currency.

Sweeping systems pose a lot of potential problems. It's a lot of risk and a lot of work for very speculative rewards. Professions is a great example. I love the idea; I think the Job system actually adds a lot to the RPG and is a cool tool for players to be able to use. I won't deny, though, that it has been a spectacular failure.


We started talking about automating zeni because that does a lot of things that a unified currency would do with virtually none of the risks.

[Kazuya]

Maybe we can return learning techs from NPCs like it was before? That was always fun and gave a nice jumping off point for people to write.

[Sigfried Hunin]

So, a quick update.

The intention is to remove the profession system in its entirety and automate zeni gain (like XP is now). We'd like people to be able to gain zeni as they post, though we want the gains to be somewhat slow in an effort to keep quests relevant.

There were, initially, technical limitations that prevented us from adding this and, more currently, technical concerns that have kept us from adding it before we have everything stable and backed up.

Given that, what wasn't been added that you would like to see?

You could take a note from AD and instead of arbitrarily separating zenni and XP, you just use XP to purchase items. By automating zenni, that's pretty much what you'd be doing anyways.

Then, in addition, the line between having items that make your character better and techniques that make your character better are more blurred, and I honestly think that's a more concise way of thinking about how characters interact: I have spent X AMOUNT on stuff, instead of I have spent Y XP and Z Zenni and those are kind of connected in convoluted ways.

[Sigfried Hunin]

Overall, I believe that the version of AD (Another destiny, if I haven't been clear) I played in (I can't be asked to check if it's the same now), the one that Alex/Piper made, is a far better system for the effects we're trying to achieve here on Chubbs.

I mean, we can all pretty much agree that our power sets have strayed from the classic DBZ fare, and that we are more people with powers in the DBZ universe than new DBZ characters.

The system that AD used was very modular, it allowed to create literally ANY character that you wanted to by mixing and matching different very basic power sets. If anyone is into pen and paper gaming, the similarities between the AD system and Mutants and Masterminds are obvious: basic, nondescript powersets that allow your character to be built up to who/what you want them to be.

THAT I think is by far a better system then the weird ass Abilities/Techniques system we have now. It does make any sense, you're forced into weird little power sets that seem to repeat themselves over and over again and, imho, the Ability set is DUMB.

I can shapeshift, and that's a technique. Anyone can get that. Ok, that's fine by me, but now you also have DARK KI and fucking INNER STRENGTH as abilities that you can only have two of. The selection of abilities just seems WEIRD. The place where AD differentiates from that system is that it makes EVERYTHING a technique so that you can do what you want with your character. Does this lead to characters being OP? No, because EVERYONE can do it, and in any order they want. It also takes the weight off of certain powers (namely abilities) and makes it a more even playing field for everyone that has powers.

You could even learn certain powers from certain NPCs liek it used to be if you wanted to give it a more DBZ feel. Easy peezy lemon squeezy.

Another thing: clearly defined parameters for powers. Regeneration, shapeshift, metal binding... all of this shit is just insane. You can do anything with them because there's not like, any kind of system defining how much you can use them or what they do or whatever. Once again, something AD tackles.

AD IS A CLONE OF CHUBBZ. It was never meant NOT to be. It's just like, Chubbz 2.0. It takes the basic ideas of chubbz and then makes them way fucking better. It wouldn't even be hard to directly convert over to the AD system RIGHT NOW. There would be changes in paperwork for the characters. Not hard at all.

EDIT: Oh, hey, I just read Belle's post so everything I said about power levels is obsolete.

[Super Buu]

AD wasn't a copy of Chubbs. Chubbs shouldn't blanket copy AD's system. There are lots of similarities between the sites and lots of ideas that can be cross-transferred, but one is a DBZ site and the other was a crossover site. Now, if Chubbs wanted to ditch the DBZ motif altogether, then I'd suggest some of the ideas I've been building up for AD.2, but I don't think the majority of people want to totally separate from DBZ.

(As a total side-note, and not just in response to Sigfried, I twitch a little bit every time someone compares something from AD to something else, even though it's dead)

[Rafael]

I love having abilities though. If anyone can have anything at anytime, what makes you interesting? All that means is you might as well let everyone start with everything to stop the inevitable power creep of all the experienced folks having all powers and noobs having relatively nothing, another version of CA. Granted, some abilities are worth way less than others imo, but the idea is awesome. For me at least, abilities would be the main reason for writing.

[Sigfried Hunin]

AD wasn't a copy of Chubbs. Chubbs shouldn't blanket copy AD's system. There are lots of similarities between the sites and lots of ideas that can be cross-transferred, but one is a DBZ site and the other was a crossover site. Now, if Chubbs wanted to ditch the DBZ motif altogether, then I'd suggest some of the ideas I've been building up for AD.2, but I don't think the majority of people want to totally separate from DBZ.

(As a total side-note, and not just in response to Sigfried, I twitch a little bit every time someone compares something from AD to something else, even though it's dead)

AD is TOTALLY a copy of Chubbz. It used the same themes, ideas and rules to complete a different goal. That's like saying that True 20 isn't a copy of D&D. It is. It's got the same stuff, different flavor and tweaked enough that it works really fuckin well.

Look at the powers we have on this site. Look at the things we're trying to do with them and the things that have already been done with them. It's not DBZ, it's not even CLOSE other than the use of ki and the occasional big explosion.

I don't know how many people have looked at piper's new system for AD, but it works like PERFECTLY for the things that we've been TRYING to do with this site. I'm not saying copy paste, I'm not saying ignore the old rules. I'm saying that I need to get my hands on a copy of them so you can look at them and be like, OK, THIS IS HOW WE DO X.

The main point is: everything is a technique, everything costs XP. There are no abilities, because that idea has fallen flat. It's pretty obvious to me that the differentiation between techniques and abilities became very blurry when old chubbz came to new chubbz, and it's just stupid now. It really is. There's no point in the separation between the two as things currently are.

We need to either rehaul the way that abilities are or just make everything techniques again.

[Sigfried Hunin]

I love having abilities though. If anyone can have anything at anytime, what makes you interesting? All that means is you might as well let everyone start with everything to stop the inevitable power creep of all the experienced folks having all powers and noobs having relatively nothing, another version of CA. Granted, some abilities are worth way less than others imo, but the idea is awesome. For me at least, abilities would be the main reason for writing.

Yeah, but you can already buy techniques that let you do way more. My abilities are regen and adaptation, and then I have shapeshift as a tech which is what my main power set is based off of.

The difference between abilities and techniques is marginal, if existent at all. The only difference between them is that there are certain techniques that you are only allowed to have two of for some reason. A lot of techniques are WAY more powerful than abilities, and beside that you can literally MAKE UP YOUR OWN TECHNIQUES. So you could do almost anything that isn't covered in the previously written powers with techs.

They are the same thing.

[Kaden]

The main point is: everything is a technique, everything costs XP. There are no abilities, because that idea has fallen flat. It's pretty obvious to me that the differentiation between techniques and abilities became very blurry when old chubbz came to new chubbz, and it's just stupid now. It really is. There's no point in the separation between the two as things currently are.

There was no differentiation between "Abilities" and "Techniques" in the old Chubbs. You couldn't buy anything. At any point.

The reason for the differentiation is to create characters that rely on specific Abilities (maybe not "rely," but that's their thing). Which, btw the way, is very Dragonball. Hell, in the original series, Roshi's thing was that he could use the Kamehameha. Characters having a "hook" was what DB and the early parts of DBZ was about.

Shapeshift is a Technique as a straight rip from Dragonball. The character literally went to school to learn how to do it. You have taken a Technique and made it part of your character. That's cool. That, however, does not seem like "proof" that we should marginalize Abilities.

I am, by the way, quite curious which Techniques you say are "way more powerful than abilities." With the very, very arguable case of Shapeshift, I don't see that as being the case anywhere.

Abilities are there to define your character. Techniques and Custom Techs are there to help them fight. That's the baseline of the system. That's why there's a limitation to the number of Abilities someone has. I've been a character who has the option to do everything. It really is not that great.

EDIT: Also, if one of the creators of something says its not a copy. It's not a copy. You can't tell him what his intent was. "Copy" implies that they were trying to strip ideas from Chubbs and integrate them into something else and we've already been told that that's the case.

If you have, or can link us to, a description of the AD system you're thinking of, that would be helpful.

[Sophia]

I don't believe any evidence of that system is around anymore. xD I could be wrong, though.

[Nori]

I'm just going to throw this out here on the topic of abilities. Fighting sense anyone? I really hate having to use scouters on a character. Ki sense would already be better because it let's you sense dragonballs.

The same way there is ki control and the ki spec.

Also, I loved the penalty system on AD. It was my favorite thing about it. Also, I loved how you could make your transformations different then other peoples by attaching a penalty to it, such as energy drain or health drain. I felt that it really set peoples transformations a part, and chubbs would benefit from it greatly. I also liked how, since your power increased with transformations, you had more xp to spend. So instead of just a power level increase you could have powers that you didn't have in your base form. It really helped to make characters different then each other.

Also, spending points for your stat ranks on AD was awesome. I really wish AD wasn't dead now. QQ.

Example: I made my Kuja character's trance to have max health drain and energy drain. His power multiplier was amazing in that form, but activating it for a few moments was all he could do because it literally killed him.

Also, summoning. In all seriousness, summoning. I know it's not dbz, but neither is metal bending. Please, I love you Kaden? <3

Edit: Damn, metal bending is dbz. How about.. some other power that's not dbz. ='o

[Rebekah]

Metal Binding actually has a niche in the Cooler movie. Horrible stretch, I know, but still. If you have Martial Arts Specialization you can make a Custom Tech that acts like a Fighting Sense.

[Nori]

Metal Binding actually has a niche in the Cooler movie. Horrible stretch, I know, but still. If you have Martial Arts Specialization you can make a Custom Tech that acts like a Fighting Sense.

Yeah, I realized after I was posting that metal binding exists. General guldo from GT used it as well, right? I don't remember.

I just loved summoning on AD. Well, right until they nerfed it when I told people what I wanted to do with it. QQ.

[Sigfried Hunin]

There was no differentiation between "Abilities" and "Techniques" in the old Chubbs. You couldn't buy anything. At any point.

The reason for the differentiation is to create characters that rely on specific Abilities (maybe not "rely," but that's their thing). Which, btw the way, is very Dragonball. Hell, in the original series, Roshi's thing was that he could use the Kamehameha. Characters having a "hook" was what DB and the early parts of DBZ was about.

Yeah, I know it was. I think that's better than what we currently have going on. I also think the current system can be changed or expanded upon to make it WORK, but right now it's really not as operational as it can be.

Shapeshift is a Technique as a straight rip from Dragonball. The character literally went to school to learn how to do it. You have taken a Technique and made it part of your character. That's cool. That, however, does not seem like "proof" that we should marginalize Abilities.

I am, by the way, quite curious which Techniques you say are "way more powerful than abilities." With the very, very arguable case of Shapeshift, I don't see that as being the case anywhere.

Marginalization isn't what I'm talking about. Integration and expansion of previously existing ideas and the current system is what I'm talking about. To make BETTER.

List of stupid abilities that should either be techniques or changed to be more powerful/less powerful:

Dark Ki: everyone of the Z fighters had the ability to like, REPRESS their power level or however the fuck you feel like explaining it so they didn't appear or at the very least seemed much less powerful than they were. In comparison to being able to TURN INVISIBLE, this seems liek an underpowered ability if you're only allowed to have TWO of them.

Elemental Ki: Ok, yes, this is cool. It's something that's often chosen. If you're creative, you can do a lot more with it, make it into something that other people don't have. Can you manifest water or earth to use? If not, it sounds like telekinesis. People usually manifest fire electricity and light easily enough. Not an example of something that is underpowered, just like, "lolwut?" in some cases.

Foresight: I can now win EVERYTHING EVER BECAUSE I SEE THE FUTURE. Most people don't write it like that, but they CAN.

Inner Strength: We all know why this is stupid in a system where we don't really even pay attention to the stats that this increases.

Ki Spec: So, it's just basically a free Ki Control (5 xp) and the character is now automatically assumed to have a high focus score. Many times people have quoted this ability to me as something I don't have and it's restrictive, so it has a bit of exclusive power to make cool techs. Not really convinced that it's worthy of being an ability however.

Ki Sense: Ignoring the ability to sense Dragonballs, everyone on the show had this. Fuckin EVERYBODY. Like dark ki, this is another case of, "wtf mate?" because now what seems like a very basic skill is excluded to everyone, and also the people who do have it, I feel, are left swaying in the breeze. Kaden has turned this into a core part of his char, which is COOL, but on it's own without any of the fixerating that he has done with techs and storyline, it's like, WHY is this an ability?

Martial Arts Spec: This one is like Ki Spec's retarded younger brother. It doesn't give you a free tech, and really there isn't a whole lot of ways to build off of it. I was considering doing like, certain techniques with Orsalis like PARALYZING STRIKE or something, but more than likely it doesn't amount to more than people writing your character as being good with his fists and shit.

Psychokinesis: Ok, so the difference where telekinesis and psychokinesis is that you can charge things with energy. Couldn't this just be a tech? The ability to use a power that's another tech and then like, a lil addon of being able to charge shit with energy? Mehrehfdb

Regeneration: I can now not be hurt by anything. Thank you.

Time Stop: If I stop time for long enough, I can do pretty much anything. I may not directly attack you, but I can set up explosives all over you, disable your ship and fuck your mother. Also, I can pretty much teleport because to everyone else I've just gone from one place to another in no time flat.

Ok, and I have a FEW of the basic techniques, so not the literally LIMITLESS CUSTOMS WHICH CAN DO ALMOST ANYTHING:

Body Size Control: Ok, so this seems like something that isn't learned. Did it show up in the show that way? I mean, it would be kind of a shitty ability, but you can already do this with shapeshift unless you buy it just to try and be considerate like I did. It's also something that would seem to be something exclusive to people who wanted this ability (like saiyans or whatever). Just seems WEIRD. It also doesn't provide a stat bonus for oozaru. It also only lets you grow twice your size? That's not as big as an oozaru. Like, at all.

Body Split: Holy shit, ability much? I'm not two/four/eight/sixteen fuckin people. Ohaithar. I think that anyone should be able to learn it, but I also think anyone should be able to learn any ability.

Ki Absorbption: Another abiltiy power. The power to DRAIN THE LIFE FORCE FROM OTHER PEOPLE. Way more potent than half the shit that's abilities.

Shapechange: I am now anything I want to be. It is awesome and allows me to do really cool creative stuff.

Telekinesis: Who learned this? Cell is one of the few people I can think of... maybe a few other. I remember people lifting stuff a lot with their mind. Maybe, I can't really remember.

Telepathy: Who learned telepathy in DBZ? There was like one or two characters who had it.

Venomous Ki: Another damn thing that's just like, WOAH HOW COOL IS THAT, MAN I'M GLAD I DIDN'T PICK DARK KI, WHAT FUCKING RETARD I WOULD HAVE FELT LIKE. Nobody learned it, and it blows half the previous list out of the fucking water.


And guess what, those are the BASIC TECHS FROM THE LIST.

Abilities are there to define your character. Techniques and Custom Techs are there to help them fight. That's the baseline of the system. That's why there's a limitation to the number of Abilities someone has. I've been a character who has the option to do everything. It really is not that great.

I'm not saying it's fucking fantastic, like some kinda great joy ride of fantastic adventure or anything, I'm saying that it would allow peopel to create the characters they envision much more easily, and allow people to make cool combos, be creative and make the shit that they see their character being able to do.

EDIT: Also, if one of the creators of something says its not a copy. It's not a copy. You can't tell him what his intent was. "Copy" implies that they were trying to strip ideas from Chubbs and integrate them into something else and we've already been told that that's the case.

If you have, or can link us to, a description of the AD system you're thinking of, that would be helpful.

I'm not telling him what his intent was, I'm telling him what it came out as. I'm also not telling him what the system was used for. I'm not talking about the characters or the writing or anything else. I'm talking about the basic way that the system worked and how the pieces fit together.

I'm not sure how involved Rose was with the most recent incarnation of AD was either. I just have no idea. Maybe he was there the whole time, maybe he didn't even know something changed.

The system I'm talking about is the one that (I'm pretty sure) came out before the site went down down recently. The one where Alex RPed as Protoman, I was Warboss and Victoria was that one chick from FF. Unfortunately, I didn't save the rules chapters or else I would post em. I'm sure Piper has em somewhere, but getting him to even get into it with that conversation probably won't happen.


This is the application post I made:


Name of Character: Warboss DeffCrusha

Place of Origin: Planet Angelis (tha’s Orkamorka to ye’s, git!)

Starting Place: Atra

Stats:

ATK: 45
DEF: 45
SPD: 5
TEC: 5

Starting Powers: Basic Regeneration, Master Bodily Survival

Trademarks:

Items:Custom Weapon: Power Klaw

RP Sample:

Powers are like techniques. Exactly like them, but far more numerous and far better organized. Trademarks are like Custom techniques that players make. That was pretty much the system. Also, you buy items with XP.

It's the SAME. SHIT. But far more streamlined, clean and delicious to accommodate for literally ANY character being put into the system.

It's a lot like the M&M for play by post: you can make ANYBODY you can imagine, make it balanced and fun to play with. But, you can also apply any flavor you want to it because it goes with ANYTHING. If you want to make a DBZ character with it, you CAN and it'll be PERFECT to write with. There's no reason that it's AD specific, or ANYTHING specific for that matter because it's a system that goes with the flow and allows you to create freely.

There is a DIRECT CONVERSION for EVERY SINGLE WRITER on this site and it wouldn't even be HARD. I bet that I could go through, take all the active writers and convert them over in a matter of about two hours, if not less.

Once again, not saying we need to direct copy and paste but you should look at it, if Piper would grace us with it's presence.

[Sigfried Hunin]

I don't believe any evidence of that system is around anymore. xD I could be wrong, though.

You are totally right. The site is LOST.... v_v

Truly the death of a titan WHO NEVER LEFT THE WOMB *sobs*