Affordable Healthcare Act upheld

[Vad]

What about the US? You're over ten trillion dollars in debt. If socialist nations in Europe are in decay, then your nation must be a long way beyond that.

Socialism fixes nothing. It's a good idea, it sounds selfless, but it's complete crap. Capitalism looks worse because the collective IQ of the human race is 5 and everyone is an asshole. Society is a plague.

Both fucking suck in my eyes right now. One breeds assholes. The other breeds government that will eventually put you into death camps if you're not doing what it wants. Just saiyan.

I could quite happily run off a long list of New Testament passages that go against a lot of right-wing ideals.

Now that I'm back in my chair because I've spent that last five minutes laughing at this statement I'll say this.

If anything religion should INSPIRE good will, morals, and selflessness. However don't bring a bible into the "How To Run a Country Class" or I'll kick you out the fucking door.

America should be run like this in my opinion: Get someone in office who for the first year goes "Fuck the populace. We need to stop the country from bleeding funds faster than a terrorist bleeds out from having his throat slit."

The Government is the city guard. It protects against foreign problems and assists states when it's absolutely needed. Like natural disasters and such. The States however should be generating their own income and doing shit themselves. I see the government as an entity that if, say, Ohio needed some extra money for a new school the Federal Government would say "Yeah. We'll come up with half. You find the rest."

This is perfect world here though.

ON TO HEALTH CARE! ITT WHICH EVERYONE BELIEVES TO BE SOME SELFLESS HUMAN ACT OF GOD THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE AND IF YOU DON'T AGREE ARE A HEATHEN!

Health Care is tricky. Everyone deserves medical treatment, but it costs money and this money needs to come from somewhere. You people throw around Universal Healthcare like money grows on fucking trees. Makes me sick. No one stops to think about what someone who runs a country might have to do to fix it.

You want affordable health care? Well you need to get a Federal Government OR A STATE GOVERNMENT that isn't always in debt and is MAKING MONEY EACH YEAR and not spending into fucking deficit. You need to have the positive numbers in your bank account before you can spend money on that new car.

America can't simply convert to something like Obama-Asshole Care without performing triage on the country's money problem first. And the GREAT PART is that it penalizes you for not having healthcare. GG Democrats. GG It isn't your job to tell us what we can and can't do. We kinda got rid of that in 1776, but WAIT NO! WE JUST WANT TO HELP!

Yeah this is a rather aggressive rant. Just FYI.

[Kaden]

This has been remarkably civil so far, Vad. If you can't keep from being "aggressive" then don't post.

[Vad]

Deal.

[Pinky]

What about the US? You're over ten trillion dollars in debt. If socialist nations in Europe are in decay, then your nation must be a long way beyond that.

Our situation is different. First, debt is a function of GDP; our total debt is high but our GDP is way above any other nation. And the US Dollar is the world reserve currency. This adds a great deal of value to our currency that no other nation has, so we can fair better at monetizing our debt. Not that doing so is a good idea.

Our economy is also better, and that helps us pay the debts; we protest about 8% unemployment, but that would be considered a booming economy in most Euro member states. Plus, we fight against the tide of huge government policies that tend to drag the economy down, while Euro members are putting Socialist Party sects into power.

And how is this any different? You pay road taxes, do you not? What if you didn't want to drive? How come you still have to pay tax? Is that not the same 'tyranny' you're talking about? What if you don't support the military? Certainly, given that the US spends more on its military than anywhere else in the world, far and beyond any amount that could be justified by the most eloquent spindoctor, and I'm certain that at least a part of your income tax goes to fund that. Supplying money to the armed forces sounds a lot more tyrannical than giving someone with cancer a second chance to me.

The interstate highway system was a valid military project. In WW2 we ran into a lot of logistical problems with major population/manufacturing centers on the east coast, while fighting a full scale war on the far side of the Pacific. Interstates were meant for mlitary use only, but political pressure has opened them up to the public a few years after it was finished. And by the way, the system was built by the Army Corps of Engineers and was finished ahead of schedule and under budget. Where's the equivilance to the entitlements?

Not that I agree with the interstates being used haphazardly by the public. The roadways are under a much higher use burden than they were originally made for, and this has dramatically raised the cost of maintainence to unaffordable levels. That's why it's falling apart. It may have raised economic output, but not enough to pay for the use. It would be a good idea to privatize much of the system and stop using parts that don't pay for themselves, it's a waste of resources.

On top of that, the military is one of the few valid functions of the federal government. Not that all military spending is sacred, but at the very least it's not invalid. Plus, the DOD (including the wars) is 19% of the budget. Even if we shut down the majority of the Department of Defense we would still be running a deficit. The military is not causing our debt crisis. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and misc entitlement programs like federal welfare literally take up the majority of the budget, and the majority of Obamacare hasn't even started yet.

Your nation is the only first world nation without some sort of socialized medicine program, and also suffers from the worst debt crisis in human history. Giving medicine to the people isn't the problem, the priorities of your litigious, selfish, resource-squandering government are the problem.

Our debt as a function of GDP has been higher in the mid-20th century, and many nations have higher relative debts today. Still, our debt is too high. For reasons already mentioned, if we follow the rest of the world on economic and social policy then our -- and the global -- economy will collapse permanently. That's why China keeps giving us major loans, because if we go down everyone gets hurt. It should make you stop and marvel that a one-party communist regime is more productive and business-friendly than the United States is today. Communists are running away from socialism, why should we embrace it?

[Vad]

I'm just going to let you speak for me now. >.>

[Super Buu]

I am sincerely sorry for ever mentioning religion in this thread. I honestly just intended to point out something that I found to be a hilarious oxymoron, not start a serious debate. I'm going to step out because honestly, the only people in this thread who are debating in a way where I'd wanna debate with them, I already agree with.

[Sage]

Yes, because China has an impeccable record, never violating anyone's human rights and ensuring the standard of living soars in that country.

...

...Yeah.

And yeah, true, debt is a function of GDP, but you're getting to the point where servicing your debt is going to consume an enormous amount of that GDP, and is getting to the point where economists are concerned it could actually outgrow the GDP in the long-term.

Worse than that, you say that your currency is the world standard, which is true to an extent, but since 2008 many wealthy nations like the UAE are buying fewer dollars and buying more gold.

Regardless of the facts, consumer confidence in the US economy has rarely been lower, especially from the point of view of foreign investment.

Plus, you kind of dodged the question. Yep, medicine is expensive. Especially the way you guys have it set up.

But 'forcing' military expenditures on people, or road works, or, hell, even schooling, on people is just as tyrannical as 'forcing' healthcare on people.

And, Vad, just so you know, you're in equal parts condemning and supporting socialism. What do you think 'giving' half the money to Ohio is, exactly? That's a transfer payment. That's socialism.

In fact, despite the fact that the US is 'officially' not socialist, your government subsidizes over 100% more money for American farmland than we do for Canadian farmland, and we produce more food per capita by far. And we're actually socialist.

That is a socialist practice. In other words, the USA already is socialist in many, many ways, but just won't admit it.

Your military receives socialized healthcare, and I doubt that many GIs complain about that.

I just feel that maybe you should complain about wasted money where it's actually being wasted. For instance, my city is spending a half billion dollars on a museum we don't need while our roads and medical centers are starving for funding. That is a waste of money. If we had a surplus and could afford it, I'd be all for the museum. But museums are not profitable, and spending so much on it now when the money is needed so badly elsewhere is- I don't even have a word for it. I'd like to say 'sinful' but I don't like the religious connotations attached to that.

And, hey, our economy's faring quite well despite our evil socialist tendencies. Plus, I don't take my life into my own hands just crossing the street like many Americans often have to.

Though it is a personal anecdote and not really the best argument, one of the big reasons I support socialized medicine is simple; my grandfather's cancer treatments cost 600 thousand dollars when they finished. We were never presented with a bill for anything except medication, which, over half was also subsidized by the government. He would absolutely have died without it.

You're calling me selfish, Vad? You would let a man like my grandfather die, despite the fact we have access to effective treatment and have doctors and nurses available to perform the necessary procedures?

That's the kind of horrible selfishness the Occupy movement rallied against, wasn't it?

The truth is, pure capitalism does not work. And, wow, really? That's quite the stretch, there, linking socialism to tyranny. A Hitler reference, I'm guessing?

Kind of reaching, given that most socialist Scandinavian states are among the most socially liberal nations on Earth.

If we're gonna do the jingoist deathcamp analogy, I'd say the USA is far more likely to start setting those up before a state like Switzerland, lol

I turned down my greencard because your government scares me. I'm not concerned about socialist nations like Denmark or Sweden. =/

[Vad]

There is an evil side to me you haven't even begun to see. I also really hate when people use relatives as a mean to make me feel like a bad person for stating a stance.

I don't blame today's Germany for taking my great uncles life on Omaha Beach...

[Sage]

But today's Germany isn't responsible for a war that happened 70 years ago. Or, rather, the government is, yeah, but they've gone to enormous strides rebuilding, paying reparations, apologizing and setting things right. Germany did and still does a great deal for Holocaust survivors and their descendants, and has paid enormous sums repairing huge parts of Europe since WWI and II.

Something somebody else never bothered to do. Here's lookin at you, Japan. -.-

Today's USA is responsible for looking the other way while it's own citizens die.

That's the point, bro.

[Pinky]

I'm just going to let you speak for me now. >.>

I'm only comfortable speaking for myself. Sometimes i play fast with the facts, like making it sound as if the Army hammered the IHS personally. Like a lot of military work, the labor was contracted out, and the Army Corp of Engineers takes a much more involved role in critical infrastructure like bridges and dams. Be careful who you hitch your wagon to.

[John Doe]

I think everyone should watch the first few episodes of Monster before thinking that giving healthcare to EVERYONE is a good idea.

[Pinky]

[quote=Sage]Yes, because China has an impeccable record, never violating anyone's human rights and ensuring the standard of living soars in that country.

...

...Yeah.[quote] If you really think that way about China then you should protest by boycotting their manufactured goods. Good luck doing anything ever again. While China is objectively a bad place to live, they have made large strides toward improving living conditions for citizens after Mao died.

[quote] And yeah, true, debt is a function of GDP, but you're getting to the point where servicing your debt is going to consume an enormous amount of that GDP, and is getting to the point where economists are concerned it could actually outgrow the GDP in the long-term.[/quote] It's already taking a little over 1% of GDP, and yeah that is a lot. I stated several times in the last post that debt is too high, but we could easily deal with it by cutting real entitlement spending (as opposed to merely cutting the growth rate of entitlement spending, which is what current budget proposals would do [Obama even slandered Ryan's budget as "social darwinism" even though there were no real cuts...], and the last thing we need is to aggressively increase that type of spending).

[quote] Worse than that, you say that your currency is the world standard, which is true to an extent, but since 2008 many wealthy nations like the UAE are buying fewer dollars and buying more gold.

Regardless of the facts, consumer confidence in the US economy has rarely been lower, especially from the point of view of foreign investment.[/quote] They're going for gold because all fiat currencies are falling, but dollars (bonds) are seen as a relatively safe investment because Euro members are imploding and China is actively devaluing their currency to boost exports. We have time to fix our problem, I just doubt that we'll do what must be done.

[quote]Plus, you kind of dodged the question. Yep, medicine is expensive. Especially the way you guys have it set up.[/quote] It's expensive... so, creating a series of new, massive regulatory departments is going to make it cheaper? Really, when hiring over 16,000 new IRS tax enforcers is a first step...

[quote] But 'forcing' military expenditures on people, or road works, or, hell, even schooling, on people is just as tyrannical as 'forcing' healthcare on people. [/quote] There are only two forced activities that I could agree with, one is military conscription and the other is jury duty. Those are also the only two forced activities the Constitution expressly allows, and even those are of questionable need. We've had an all-volenteer military since the 70's, so I don't see why healthcare, education etc should be compulsory.

[quote] Your military receives socialized healthcare, and I doubt that many GIs complain about that. [/quote] The quality of VA hospitals has been a huge concern for a long time. Our military deserves exceptional treatment, and the exception is not the rule.

[quote] And, hey, our economy's faring quite well despite our evil socialist tendencies. Plus, I don't take my life into my own hands just crossing the street like many Americans often have to. [/quote] You also don't have a major political party pandering to economic obstrutionists like our Democrats with the ecofascists. We can't even agree to let you guys get a new pipeline to funnel more of your oil into our oil-hungry country. You don't understand what it's like over here. I wish building a museum was our biggest concern, because at least we'd be building something.

[quote] Though it is a personal anecdote and not really the best argument, one of the big reasons I support socialized medicine is simple; my grandfather's cancer treatments cost 600 thousand dollars when they finished. We were never presented with a bill for anything except medication, which, over half was also subsidized by the government. He would absolutely have died without it.

You're calling me selfish, Vad? You would let a man like my grandfather die, despite the fact we have access to effective treatment and have doctors and nurses available to perform the necessary procedures?

That's the kind of horrible selfishness the Occupy movement rallied against, wasn't it?

The truth is, pure capitalism does not work. And, wow, really? That's quite the stretch, there, linking socialism to tyranny. A Hitler reference, I'm guessing?

Kind of reaching, given that most socialist Scandinavian states are among the most socially liberal nations on Earth.

If we're gonna do the jingoist deathcamp analogy, I'd say the USA is far more likely to start setting those up before a state like Switzerland, lol

I turned down my greencard because your government scares me. I'm not concerned about socialist nations like Denmark or Sweden. =/[/QUOTE] Spending 600,000 of someone else's dollars doesn't make it affordable (re: Government is the fiction...). At some point the gravy train ends. And yes, wanting your granfather to live at someone else's cost is selfish. To pay for that, someone or someones had to lose it, and pay for the system that took it from them, and another system that transferred it to your end. And if you want to believe that it all came at a harmless cost to the rich, the rich do not keep their wealth locked away idly in a 100-story vault like Scrooge McDuck. It would have been investment money that would have grown the economy, which is historically the most likely way to raise overall tax revenues -- on the other hand, sheer confiscation drives away the people who shoulder the biggest tax burdens.

And on top of that, just because people dont support being raped by the taxman doesn't mean they dont support charities.

On top of that, small homogenous societies tend to be more efficient with government because more people share the same values and want the same methods to be used for the same goals. Large, heterogenous societies are best left free because disputes will utterly ruin whatever happens. We are, after all, the "great melting pot."

[Super Buu]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/what-obamaca...irlfriend/

[Anzekay]

Now that I'm back in my chair because I've spent that last five minutes laughing at this statement I'll say this.

If anything religion should INSPIRE good will, morals, and selflessness. However don't bring a bible into the "How To Run a Country Class" or I'll kick you out the fucking door.

Hey thanks for totally misunderstanding my statement and acting like a tool, Vad, that's really helpful!

[Jonathan Meer]

[Maruset]

Kinda wish I had Kaden powers so I could have that as my avatar

[Ashe]

Moderation time.

Kaden has already pointed out that he felt Vad's first post was over the line in how it approached the argument. Vad acknowledged it as such. Let's move on from that point so as to continue the discussion rather than derail the thread.

[Sage]

We do have economic obstructionists, though. Just look at the mayor of Vancouver. He's essentially a plant of an American 'ecofascist' group. He can't really make any serious energy decisions because his ties to that organization consistently cut them down. We were going to run a pipeline to the harbor from Alberta, and it was shut down because they 'didn't need it,' despite the fact it would have added thousands of jobs and millions in revenues.

It gets worse but I think it's a bit off-topic.

Honestly, I would not want to live in a nation like the one you're describing 'ideally.' It's pretty clear we have very different opinions about what is the 'right' way to go about running a nation.

I don't feel I have anything more constructive to add, but I'll answer any questions directed my way. Thanks for the debate, Pinky. It was interesting.

[Super Buu]

continue the discussion rather than derail the thread.

Just to point out that the OP was an animated gif, not a debate, and that the debate is pretty much just the usual Pinky-hijacking-thread-and-turning-it-into-an-endless-political-debate-with-no-resolution, your honorable moderation.

*adjusts tie*

Given the circumstances, I believe my client at least has a right to call Vad a toolbag for his aggressive post before dropping it.

*sits down*

[Ashe]

Yeah, why do I bother...