07-02-2012, 10:17 PM
[quote=Sage]Yes, because China has an impeccable record, never violating anyone's human rights and ensuring the standard of living soars in that country.
...
...Yeah.[quote] If you really think that way about China then you should protest by boycotting their manufactured goods. Good luck doing anything ever again. While China is objectively a bad place to live, they have made large strides toward improving living conditions for citizens after Mao died.
[quote] And yeah, true, debt is a function of GDP, but you're getting to the point where servicing your debt is going to consume an enormous amount of that GDP, and is getting to the point where economists are concerned it could actually outgrow the GDP in the long-term.[/quote] It's already taking a little over 1% of GDP, and yeah that is a lot. I stated several times in the last post that debt is too high, but we could easily deal with it by cutting real entitlement spending (as opposed to merely cutting the growth rate of entitlement spending, which is what current budget proposals would do [Obama even slandered Ryan's budget as "social darwinism" even though there were no real cuts...], and the last thing we need is to aggressively increase that type of spending).
[quote] Worse than that, you say that your currency is the world standard, which is true to an extent, but since 2008 many wealthy nations like the UAE are buying fewer dollars and buying more gold.
Regardless of the facts, consumer confidence in the US economy has rarely been lower, especially from the point of view of foreign investment.[/quote] They're going for gold because all fiat currencies are falling, but dollars (bonds) are seen as a relatively safe investment because Euro members are imploding and China is actively devaluing their currency to boost exports. We have time to fix our problem, I just doubt that we'll do what must be done.
[quote]Plus, you kind of dodged the question. Yep, medicine is expensive. Especially the way you guys have it set up.[/quote] It's expensive... so, creating a series of new, massive regulatory departments is going to make it cheaper? Really, when hiring over 16,000 new IRS tax enforcers is a first step...
[quote] But 'forcing' military expenditures on people, or road works, or, hell, even schooling, on people is just as tyrannical as 'forcing' healthcare on people. [/quote] There are only two forced activities that I could agree with, one is military conscription and the other is jury duty. Those are also the only two forced activities the Constitution expressly allows, and even those are of questionable need. We've had an all-volenteer military since the 70's, so I don't see why healthcare, education etc should be compulsory.
[quote] Your military receives socialized healthcare, and I doubt that many GIs complain about that. [/quote] The quality of VA hospitals has been a huge concern for a long time. Our military deserves exceptional treatment, and the exception is not the rule.
[quote] And, hey, our economy's faring quite well despite our evil socialist tendencies. Plus, I don't take my life into my own hands just crossing the street like many Americans often have to. [/quote] You also don't have a major political party pandering to economic obstrutionists like our Democrats with the ecofascists. We can't even agree to let you guys get a new pipeline to funnel more of your oil into our oil-hungry country. You don't understand what it's like over here. I wish building a museum was our biggest concern, because at least we'd be building something.
[quote] Though it is a personal anecdote and not really the best argument, one of the big reasons I support socialized medicine is simple; my grandfather's cancer treatments cost 600 thousand dollars when they finished. We were never presented with a bill for anything except medication, which, over half was also subsidized by the government. He would absolutely have died without it.
You're calling me selfish, Vad? You would let a man like my grandfather die, despite the fact we have access to effective treatment and have doctors and nurses available to perform the necessary procedures?
That's the kind of horrible selfishness the Occupy movement rallied against, wasn't it?
The truth is, pure capitalism does not work. And, wow, really? That's quite the stretch, there, linking socialism to tyranny. A Hitler reference, I'm guessing?
Kind of reaching, given that most socialist Scandinavian states are among the most socially liberal nations on Earth.
If we're gonna do the jingoist deathcamp analogy, I'd say the USA is far more likely to start setting those up before a state like Switzerland, lol
I turned down my greencard because your government scares me. I'm not concerned about socialist nations like Denmark or Sweden. =/[/QUOTE] Spending 600,000 of someone else's dollars doesn't make it affordable (re: Government is the fiction...). At some point the gravy train ends. And yes, wanting your granfather to live at someone else's cost is selfish. To pay for that, someone or someones had to lose it, and pay for the system that took it from them, and another system that transferred it to your end. And if you want to believe that it all came at a harmless cost to the rich, the rich do not keep their wealth locked away idly in a 100-story vault like Scrooge McDuck. It would have been investment money that would have grown the economy, which is historically the most likely way to raise overall tax revenues -- on the other hand, sheer confiscation drives away the people who shoulder the biggest tax burdens.
And on top of that, just because people dont support being raped by the taxman doesn't mean they dont support charities.
On top of that, small homogenous societies tend to be more efficient with government because more people share the same values and want the same methods to be used for the same goals. Large, heterogenous societies are best left free because disputes will utterly ruin whatever happens. We are, after all, the "great melting pot."
...
...Yeah.[quote] If you really think that way about China then you should protest by boycotting their manufactured goods. Good luck doing anything ever again. While China is objectively a bad place to live, they have made large strides toward improving living conditions for citizens after Mao died.
[quote] And yeah, true, debt is a function of GDP, but you're getting to the point where servicing your debt is going to consume an enormous amount of that GDP, and is getting to the point where economists are concerned it could actually outgrow the GDP in the long-term.[/quote] It's already taking a little over 1% of GDP, and yeah that is a lot. I stated several times in the last post that debt is too high, but we could easily deal with it by cutting real entitlement spending (as opposed to merely cutting the growth rate of entitlement spending, which is what current budget proposals would do [Obama even slandered Ryan's budget as "social darwinism" even though there were no real cuts...], and the last thing we need is to aggressively increase that type of spending).
[quote] Worse than that, you say that your currency is the world standard, which is true to an extent, but since 2008 many wealthy nations like the UAE are buying fewer dollars and buying more gold.
Regardless of the facts, consumer confidence in the US economy has rarely been lower, especially from the point of view of foreign investment.[/quote] They're going for gold because all fiat currencies are falling, but dollars (bonds) are seen as a relatively safe investment because Euro members are imploding and China is actively devaluing their currency to boost exports. We have time to fix our problem, I just doubt that we'll do what must be done.
[quote]Plus, you kind of dodged the question. Yep, medicine is expensive. Especially the way you guys have it set up.[/quote] It's expensive... so, creating a series of new, massive regulatory departments is going to make it cheaper? Really, when hiring over 16,000 new IRS tax enforcers is a first step...
[quote] But 'forcing' military expenditures on people, or road works, or, hell, even schooling, on people is just as tyrannical as 'forcing' healthcare on people. [/quote] There are only two forced activities that I could agree with, one is military conscription and the other is jury duty. Those are also the only two forced activities the Constitution expressly allows, and even those are of questionable need. We've had an all-volenteer military since the 70's, so I don't see why healthcare, education etc should be compulsory.
[quote] Your military receives socialized healthcare, and I doubt that many GIs complain about that. [/quote] The quality of VA hospitals has been a huge concern for a long time. Our military deserves exceptional treatment, and the exception is not the rule.
[quote] And, hey, our economy's faring quite well despite our evil socialist tendencies. Plus, I don't take my life into my own hands just crossing the street like many Americans often have to. [/quote] You also don't have a major political party pandering to economic obstrutionists like our Democrats with the ecofascists. We can't even agree to let you guys get a new pipeline to funnel more of your oil into our oil-hungry country. You don't understand what it's like over here. I wish building a museum was our biggest concern, because at least we'd be building something.
[quote] Though it is a personal anecdote and not really the best argument, one of the big reasons I support socialized medicine is simple; my grandfather's cancer treatments cost 600 thousand dollars when they finished. We were never presented with a bill for anything except medication, which, over half was also subsidized by the government. He would absolutely have died without it.
You're calling me selfish, Vad? You would let a man like my grandfather die, despite the fact we have access to effective treatment and have doctors and nurses available to perform the necessary procedures?
That's the kind of horrible selfishness the Occupy movement rallied against, wasn't it?
The truth is, pure capitalism does not work. And, wow, really? That's quite the stretch, there, linking socialism to tyranny. A Hitler reference, I'm guessing?
Kind of reaching, given that most socialist Scandinavian states are among the most socially liberal nations on Earth.
If we're gonna do the jingoist deathcamp analogy, I'd say the USA is far more likely to start setting those up before a state like Switzerland, lol
I turned down my greencard because your government scares me. I'm not concerned about socialist nations like Denmark or Sweden. =/[/QUOTE] Spending 600,000 of someone else's dollars doesn't make it affordable (re: Government is the fiction...). At some point the gravy train ends. And yes, wanting your granfather to live at someone else's cost is selfish. To pay for that, someone or someones had to lose it, and pay for the system that took it from them, and another system that transferred it to your end. And if you want to believe that it all came at a harmless cost to the rich, the rich do not keep their wealth locked away idly in a 100-story vault like Scrooge McDuck. It would have been investment money that would have grown the economy, which is historically the most likely way to raise overall tax revenues -- on the other hand, sheer confiscation drives away the people who shoulder the biggest tax burdens.
And on top of that, just because people dont support being raped by the taxman doesn't mean they dont support charities.
On top of that, small homogenous societies tend to be more efficient with government because more people share the same values and want the same methods to be used for the same goals. Large, heterogenous societies are best left free because disputes will utterly ruin whatever happens. We are, after all, the "great melting pot."
![[Image: rsz_jqvaz_1.jpg]](http://z6.ifrm.com/4805/72/0/p1022159/rsz_jqvaz_1.jpg)