The epic Freiza vs Goku debate

[Pink Underoo]

Originally posted by Super Buu

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
There is no such thing as "double Kaioken," that's just anime trash. Back during the battle against Vegeta base Goku was 8,000, Kaioken Goku was 16,000 (still less than Vegeta's base 18,000), triple Kaiouken Goku was 24,000 (equal to Vegeta's Gallick Gun), and Kaiouken x4 Goku was 32,000.

That's what I was trying to say, and I agree. Kaioken's multiplier doesn't mean Goku's entire power level is being multiplied by it, it just means the boost is bigger.

I'm pretty sure SSJ is stronger by itself than Kaioken, though, as the only time Goku used Kaioken and SSJ together was in the filler afterlife saga against Pikkon. When he was SSJ against Frieza, there was no red aura/tint. My guess is that you can't use two at the same time - your power just goes to the strongest powerup. Like, you can't go SSJ and SSJ3, and have them 'stack'. The SSJ+KK was non-canon, so I guess that doesn't really count.

Yeah, filler = pointless. =/

The argument that Goku's SSJ is x2 + x20 instead of x40 seems semantical, but it's important when you think about other characters that also use SSJ in the manga.

Think about the thematic significance: before Goku, Kaiosama said that nobody had mastered Kaioken, so Goku using Kaioken represented the fruits of hard work (during the Goku vs Vegeta fight on earth, Goku says, "a low-class can surpass an elite... if he trains hard enough"). And in the fight against Freiza he was using Kaioken at such a high level of skill that nobody but Kaiosama knew about it, so at that point it's essentially the same as his base power level.

On the other hand, Vegeta's power level, which represents natural talent, is practically always above Goku's power level without Kaioken (the only exception is when Goku first lands on Namek). During the fight against final form Freiza, Vegeta was healed by Dende and became significantly stronger than Piccolo (who was 800,000) while Goku w/o Kaioken was only 300,000. Later, the gap between them gets larger when Vegeta is resurrected and he's even stronger. Also take into account that during the Android saga Vegeta was training at x400 gravity, and since x100 gravity gave Goku a maximum of 1.8 million (base 90,000 + Kaioken x20) we have to say that Vegeta is at least four times that (which makes him ~7.2 million) and he continued to train further before he got SSJ.

At that point, if SSJ gives Vegeta merely x30 or even x20 he'd be as strong if not stronger than Goku. So, since his base power level is always greater than Goku w/o Kaioken then the real SSJ factor has to be a lot smaller, and Kaioken (hard work) is the deciding factor that gives low-class Goku the advantage.