The epic Freiza vs Goku debate

[Drake]

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura

I'm not saying that Kaioken is better than SSJ, but Goku would never have had the power to become SSJ if he didn't use Kaioken to ascend to the such an ungodly level that Toriyama stopped giving character power levels. I'm only following the theme set by Toriyama: that without hard work (which is embodied by sheer training early in the manga, and Kaioken becomes a part of that) Goku is just a low-class fighter compared to everyone else.

Goku didn't have energy left to use a Kaioken when Kuririn died, he could barely stand. He went from zero to super saiyajin in an instant there wasn't any "Powering Up" nor did he have the energy to do a Kaioken until he'd gone SSJ. But his power level rose way above that before he even tried powering up.

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
The negative effects of Kaioken, which Goku learned largely because he was Saiyan and could adapt to them, could simply be negated by the ultimate power of the Saiyan's golden transformation, among other things (like how after the Genki Dama Goku was so tired he couldn't stand up, but transforming into SSJ restored his stamina completely). But I didn't want to go there because this sort of discussion breaks down to fandom which leads to insanity. ~_~

The negative effects never left, they always stayed just that the existed at high levels with large gaps between them. Goku still was unsure if his body could handle a 20x Kaioken just like he was unsure if he could handle a 3x one.

As for SSJ, well that breaks all the laws so who cares we could speculate where that power comes from but it's the only time it's replenished energy before.

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
You're so wrong it hurts ;_; even in Naruto, Naruto has a degree of abnormal power in the form of the Kyuubi but he's still considered as one of the characters that implements "hard work."

Goku's potential is likewise just the part of his character that makes his hard work so effective. In the very first chapter we see Goku breaking logs apart, catching giant man-eating fish, and throwing a car over with his bare hands. Of course it can partially be attributed to latent potential, but it shows that his daily chores in life are a super training regimen.

This is expounding on when Roshi tutors him for the 21st tournament and he grows stronger by delivering milk while wearing a heavy turtle shell and digging dirt fields barehanded, when he goes searching for the Dragonballs as training for the 22nd tournament and he becomes even stronger, fighting Piccolo Daioumon and more training before the 23rd tournament and he becomes stronger than Kami, when he finally dies and goes to Kaiosama's and gets supernatural training in Kaioken, training at x100 gravity and quickly improving the "God Power" with SSJ, etc, etc and so forth. HARD WORK, MUTHAFUKA

If you really want to look at it that way, then Sasuke, and Neji are hard workers too. Everyone in DB worked that hard, but Goku and always managed to surpass them and grow at an accelerated rate. During the Cell Saga Goku focused most of his time on improving Gohan's fighting skill as well as helping him go SSJ yet he managed to completely outclass Vegeta even though both him and Trunks trained to the very limit and he was supposed to be an elite fighter.

You think Tenshinhan, who had spent all his life training to the extreme was not hardworking enough? Even though Goku matched his strength and surpassed him as a child?

Sure Goku worked hard, but no harder than anyone else and yet he still ended up on top. In DB, Goku is the fighting genius.