05-24-2007, 12:38 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kakarot
Goku didn't have energy left to use a Kaioken when Kuririn died, he could barely stand. He went from zero to super saiyajin in an instant there wasn't any "Powering Up" nor did he have the energy to do a Kaioken until he'd gone SSJ. But his power level rose way above that before he even tried powering up
The negative effects never left, they always stayed just that the existed at high levels with large gaps between them. Goku still was unsure if his body could handle a 20x Kaioken just like he was unsure if he could handle a 3x one.
As for SSJ, well that breaks all the laws so who cares we could speculate where that power comes from but it's the only time it's replenished energy before.
I know. But the fact that he was able to recover is just "story magic," it never happens again so it's not really part of the transformation, and by picking on things like that then anybody can reasonably prove just about anything. So, as a solid context for my argument I'm bringing in other characters that also get to use SSJ, remarking on their thematic relevance, and Goku's thematic relevence and how he uses SSJ and how he got there.
To summerize what my original point was: the power multiplication given by Super Saiyan has to be much, much lower for characters like Vegeta and Gohan if Goku is supposed to be stronger than them (at the end of the Freiza saga, character-compairsons place Vegeta's base ki far beyond Goku's). Since both elite Vegeta and power-monster Gohan have more base ki and latent potential than Goku, the only explination is that Goku has Kaioken. If Vegeta is increasing at 10 ki points an hour, and Gohan is increasing at 18 ki points an hour, and Goku is doing only 1 ki point an hour, it makes no difference because Goku can go x20. Even if Vegeta and Gohan get more out of transforming into SSJ, Goku still trumps them with his power hack. =o
About Kaioken's negative effects, I do hope you realize I was being somewhat sarcastic. But the truth is that the effects are relative to his maximum. If x4 is Goku's best effort at earth, then x2 (normal Kaioken) isn't going to be so bad. If x20 is his maximum at Namek, then x10 will be easier than x3 back on earth. Following in that vein, if he can obtain the equivalent of x40 from SSJ, then the x20 from Kaioken is likely a part of that and it shouldn't be a problem anymore.
Quote:If you really want to look at it that way, then Sasuke, and Neji are hard workers too. Everyone in DB worked that hard, but Goku and always managed to surpass them and grow at an accelerated rate. During the Cell Saga Goku focused most of his time on improving Gohan's fighting skill as well as helping him go SSJ yet he managed to completely outclass Vegeta even though both him and Trunks trained to the very limit and he was supposed to be an elite fighter.
You think Tenshinhan, who had spent all his life training to the extreme was not hardworking enough? Even though Goku matched his strength and surpassed him as a child?
Sure Goku worked hard, but no harder than anyone else and yet he still ended up on top. In DB, Goku is the fighting genius.
Again, this gets semantical. Goku, despite being naturally weaker than Vegeta and Gohan, has Kaioken. When Goku was teaching Gohan in the RoSaT their practice was part of the training (even though it was limited to the last few months or whatever), whereas Vegeta and Trunks trained seperately. Not only that, Trunks suffers from the same thematic foible his father does: being a loner only takes you so far, plus he's merely following in the footsteps of the lesser of the two dominant characters. The plot dictates that he's just another lesser hero with the Ascended Saiyan ability, while Gohan becomes the new main hero thus he gets the great SSJ2 ability.
Tenshinhan is Dragonball's equivalent to Naruto's Rock Lee. Hard worker, but merely human.
Yes, Goku is the fighting genius. That's a reason why he alone learned (or was given access to) Kaioken (the fruits of hard work) but, combined with being a Saiyan (being of a superior nature, which could mean mentality or ethics for thematic purposes), he took it to an obscene level.