Akira Toriyama's last anime

[Joe Android 15]

LoL...

Do you just have that kinda stuff on your comp >.>

[Deo]

Google.

[Nori]

I'm not talking fully powered up 100% Frieza.

Goku at x20 was around Final Form Frieza's power. They were pretty much on even ground for the majority of the fight.

Gohan, on the other hand, couldn't hurt 2nd Form Frieza with full rage. Yes, Frieza got knocked around. But he wasn't hurt at all.

[Deo]

Gohan pounded the shit out of Freiza's gut, then double axe handled him into the ground. I vividly remember this.

Goku was busting out Kaio-ken and not even able to hit Freiza, then he told Goku he was only using 1% of his full power while Goku was using 10%.

Goku was still out classed because Freiza was holding back so much. I mean I have a hard time believing that someone who's only using 10% of their power to match someone else's max power even with Kaio-ken would be considered matched up by any stretch of the imagination.

Don't you remember King Kai freaking out and saying Goku had been using Kaio-ken all along and still not being able to touch Freiza?

[Nori]

Ah, but you don't remember it completely do you? He completely slaughtered Frieza for 10 seconds, pounding him all over the place and barraging him with Ki on the ground. Frieza then simply got up and laughed at it making Gohan freak out.

Goku on the other hand was competing with Frieza. Yes, it was 1% Frieza. However he was able to hurt him, outrun a explosion that should have killed him, dodge/manage to get out of every attack that was thrown his way.

Gohan would have died in seconds versus Frieza at 1%.

Heck, even Piccolo who owned 2nd form Frieza was totally owned by his Third Form. He wouldn't last a second against Final Form Frieza.

[Deo]

So you just admitted that Goku could beat Freiza at 1% power.

....how's that anything of a match for him?

And as for the Gohan thing, what I'm saying is that he got such a boost of power, he was able to hit him, while Vegeta, who was several times stronger then normal Gohan, couldn't touch him even once.

And you did seem to totally ignore the Raditz part.

[Nori]

Because that part is true. However later in the Saiyan Saga, Goku is far stronger then Gohan without Kaioken.

Because.. Final Form Frieza (1%) is still far stronger then 2nd and third form Frieza that nobody else could touch. Goku fights Frieza in two stages. Final Form, and Final Form 100%. In Frieza's final form Goku was able to compete against him. That's all I said, that's all I will say. I never said he was strong enough to take on Frieza's full power.

Vegeta, after Dende healing him, I can assure could beat 2nd form Frieza.

[Captain Silver]

Goku Kaioken x20 was liek 6,600,000 and Final Form (1%) was like 6,000,000 =P

[Deo]

But that's not the point, really. For Gohan, I'm saying when Gohan cuts loose his anger, he gets a boost in power that has let him surpass Goku (even before Gohan had ANY training at all) but then Goku got special treatment and made the gap huge. It doesn't mean Gohan's born and bred, un-molded potential wasn't greater then Goku's for the entire series up until Buu saga.

I'm also saying Freiza wasn't challenged by Goku at all. You said Goku could take Freiza, and if Freiza was even trying, say..using 1/4 of his full strength, which is probably less then what I use at work, he'd destroy Goku in less then a minute.

[Nori]

..I said final form Frieza. Not his final boost of power, which is 100%. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.


Your anger thing doesn't just involve Gohan. It goes with any Half Saiyan. What about Trunks? He got SSJ at the age of what.. 11? Talking about Future.

I beleive any Half Saiyan has the potential to be stronger then a pure Saiyan. However none of them want to have the Saiyan's routine of fighting.

Edit: That was pretty much a "ya" to Gohan's anger thing.

[Deo]

Exactly. Save for the fact that Gohan was around longer then Trunks, and thus it would make more sense for him to be the hero then a guy who showed up for one saga.

As for 'power boost', it's more like power restraint. You seem to be saying that Freiza using 1% power is a normal thing when he was clearly doing it just to toy with Goku, and was holding back on purpose. I don't think he had to power up at all to go past 1%, more so I think he had to purposely restrain himself to stay at 1%.

If he was going to be physically restrained to a weaker state for the fight, he wouldn't have transformed to his final form, which he did. He was toying with Goku, not fighting equally.

A 'power boost' would have been his 100% full power form, yes, as his muscle mass would increase, but that didn't start happening until he was in the 80-90% power range, and until his muscle mass increases, it doesn't really qualify as a power boost me thinks.

[Nori]

Originally posted by Kollifum
Exactly. Save for the fact that Gohan was around longer then Trunks, and thus it would make more sense for him to be the hero then a guy who showed up for one saga.

As for 'power boost', it's more like power restraint. You seem to be saying that Freiza using 1% power is a normal thing when he was clearly doing it just to toy with Goku, and was holding back on purpose. I don't think he had to power up at all to go past 1%, more so I think he had to purposely restrain himself to stay at 1%.

If he was going to be physically restrained to a weaker state for the fight, he wouldn't have transformed to his final form, which he did. He was toying with Goku, not fighting equally.

A 'power boost' would have been his 100% full power form, yes, as his muscle mass would increase, but that didn't start happening until he was in the 80-90% power range, and until his muscle mass increases, it doesn't really qualify as a power boost me thinks.

Frieza stated he had never gone beyond 1% his power before. So in a way, it *is* beyond his normal power. Also, his physical appearences change dramatically, him getting larger and much bigger musceles. It's almost a seperate transformation in itself. Which is why in games its almost always a transformation/powerup for Frieza.

[Deo]

...I'm pretty sure he meant he's never needed to. He stated he thinks the universe couldn't stand his true power, which was why he had those weaker forms.

And like I said, his muscles don't increase until 80+ percent. Anything below that muscle mass increase would probably still be considered part of regular final form, as he looks exactly the same.

[Nori]

Yes. He has never needed to, so he never has. I can get you on the definition of Normal. >_>

[Deo]

...needing to, and having done it are two different things. Clearly he has been at that level before or he wouldn't know he could be.

And I still feel validated in the fact that he can reach peak levels without changing appearances at all. Therefore below 80% full power is his normal form, which could rape Goku. Therefore, Goku pre-super saiyan =/= a match for final form Freiza.

[Nori]

Go look at the powerlevels.

There are *two* final form Frieza's listed. There isn't Frieza at 2% power listed, Frieza at 3% power listed, Frieza at 15% listed, 80% listed, or even 99% listed.

Its simply..

Final Form Frieza.

Final Form Frieza (100%).

The reason is because that is the only Final Form's that Goku fights. Now, I said Goku owns Final Form Frieza or can match up to him, whatever and he can. Indeed, like Tom pointed out, Goku (kaiox20) is even STRONGER then Final Form Frieza.

You don't like the way it is listed, bring it up with Akira. If there was a misunderstanding in what I said that is fine. -_-'

[Deo]

=P So are you telling me that Goku at 10% is Goku?

I go by that logic. Goku was restraining himself, as was Freiza. Both were in their normal forms, and could go beyond the power levels they were currently fighting at without having to physically transform. Freiza could just go farther.

[Nori]

Where did you ever see Goku (10%)??

All I have ever seen is Goku Base and Goku x20.

[Deo]

Anime logic. You rely too much on video game logic.

[Nori]

No.. I got all mine from the official powerlevels. >_>