The epic Freiza vs Goku debate

[Nori]

I'd love to read you Manga then. Considering I'v read bits myself and it seemed Goku was able to defend himself against everything Frieza threw at him. =/

[Drake]

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
To say that SSJ give's x40 is disingenuous. The only reason he could even reach that level was because of the benifits of Kaiouken. So, it's more like SSJ increased his power by x2.5 in addition to Kaiouken x20. Didn't we have this talk before? :O

Lawlz because you believe that.

Your theory would make Goku the weakest Character in DB, since he's the only one accredited as having and using the Kaioken technique. The reason Kaioken wasn't mentioned during the Furiza fight was to hype up Furiza's strength, because most fans believed that up until that point he'd been holding back against the tyrant only to find out he'd been fighting his all.

It's not so Akira could write it out and never mention it again- ever.

Also, assuming your theory is correct, Goku would have quickly fallen behind every other fighter in the series since KK was never able to go past 20; as evidenced by that fact that he only used twenty against and exhibited no adverse effects like he did when using 4 against Vegeta. Meaning if it could go past 20, he would have used it since there wasn't any visable danger to his body yet.

Not to mention, if it was such a useful technique, why not teach it to other members of the Z-Fighter group since KKx20 Gohan SSJ2 would have pwned the shits out Cell.

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori
I'd love to read you Manga then. Considering I'v read bits myself and it seemed Goku was able to defend himself against everything Frieza threw at him. =/

Furiza beat Goku bloody with his feet, holding back his hands until Goku angered him and even after Goku threw everything he had at Furiza, he ended up barely able to stand. Trust me, Goku couldn't beat Furiza.

[Deo]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori
I'd love to read you Manga then. Considering I'v read bits myself and it seemed Goku was able to defend himself against everything Frieza threw at him. =/

Which was when Freiza had yet to use 75% of his power, which he did when fighting SSj Goku. If Freiza had been opened up that far at the beginning of the fight instead of toying with Goku, Goku would have went down hard and fast and not gotten back up.

[Pink Underoo]

Toriyama always has two characters that are of equal power fight in the end.

KKx10 Goku = final form Freiza
KKx20 Goku = half-power final form Freiza
SSJ Goku = full power final form Freiza

The plot dictates the winner.

In the manga, Goku started fighting with Kaioken x10 and Freiza was only at or near one-quarter of his full strength. Then Freiza upped himself to half-power and Goku had to use the Kaioken x20, but he only had the stamina for one attack with a Kamehameha. Freiza said it almost killed him but since Goku couldn't fight anymore it didn't really matter, so Freiza > Goku before SSJ.

[Nori]

Is that Goku, almost exhausted, blocking Frieza's energy attack?

I'm to lazy. Just look back at Dabura's post if you want to see it. -_-

[Nori]

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
Toriyama always has two characters that are of equal power fight in the end.

KKx10 Goku = final form Freiza
KKx20 Goku = half-power final form Freiza
SSJ Goku = full power final form Freiza

The plot dictates the winner.

In the manga, Goku started fighting with Kaioken x10 and Freiza was only at or near one-quarter of his full strength. Then Freiza upped himself to half-power and Goku had to use the Kaioken x20, but he only had the stamina for one attack with a Kamehameha. Freiza said it almost killed him but since Goku couldn't fight anymore it didn't really matter, so Freiza > Goku before SSJ.

And that just proved my side of the fight.

[Deo]

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
Toriyama always has two characters that are of equal power fight in the end.

KKx10 Goku = final form Freiza
KKx20 Goku = half-power final form Freiza
SSJ Goku = full power final form Freiza

The plot dictates the winner.

In the manga, Goku started fighting with Kaioken x10 and Freiza was only at or near one-quarter of his full strength. Then Freiza upped himself to half-power and Goku had to use the Kaioken x20, but he only had the stamina for one attack with a Kamehameha. Freiza said it almost killed him but since Goku couldn't fight anymore it didn't really matter, so Freiza > Goku before SSJ.

And you said he only had the strength to do 20x one time, right? So even at full strength, he'd be able to do it for...what?..like...2 minutes before being worn out?

And yes...he blocked it..with his arms and face. Excellent defensive technique.

And no, no it didn't.

[Nori]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
Toriyama always has two characters that are of equal power fight in the end.

KKx10 Goku = final form Freiza
KKx20 Goku = half-power final form Freiza
SSJ Goku = full power final form Freiza

The plot dictates the winner.

In the manga, Goku started fighting with Kaioken x10 and Freiza was only at or near one-quarter of his full strength. Then Freiza upped himself to half-power and Goku had to use the Kaioken x20, but he only had the stamina for one attack with a Kamehameha. Freiza said it almost killed him but since Goku couldn't fight anymore it didn't really matter, so Freiza > Goku before SSJ.

And that just proved my side of the fight.

[Deo]

That means his appearance. It doesn't dictate that that constitutes his abilities in said form.

Wtf.

[Nori]

I said Final Form Frieza. I proved my side.

That's all I came back for. >_>. I'm overdo for a Lucy/Shadow Link post.

[Pink Underoo]

Originally posted by Kakarot

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
To say that SSJ give's x40 is disingenuous. The only reason he could even reach that level was because of the benifits of Kaiouken. So, it's more like SSJ increased his power by x2.5 in addition to Kaiouken x20. Didn't we have this talk before? :O

Lawlz because you believe that.

Your theory would make Goku the weakest Character in DB, since he's the only one accredited as having and using the Kaioken technique. The reason Kaioken wasn't mentioned during the Furiza fight was to hype up Furiza's strength, because most fans believed that up until that point he'd been holding back against the tyrant only to find out he'd been fighting his all.

Go to hell, bitch.

The Kaioken is essentially Goku's own power, since he's the only one in the entire manga that can use it. It's just a plot device that enables him to fight with the new villians who would be far, far beyond him otherwise.

It's not so Akira could write it out and never mention it again- ever.

Also, assuming your theory is correct, Goku would have quickly fallen behind every other fighter in the series since KK was never able to go past 20; as evidenced by that fact that he only used twenty against and exhibited no adverse effects like he did when using 4 against Vegeta. Meaning if it could go past 20, he would have used it since there wasn't any visable danger to his body yet.

During the first chapters with his battle against Freiza Goku was using Kaioken x10 (Freiza says he can tell that Goku is holding back, which is true because Goku's only using half his power). Kaioken x20 was his limit, just like Kaioken x4 was the limit on earth. He made one Kamehameha attack with it, failed, and broke out the Spirit Bomb because he was too drained to do otherwise. (the pictures I posted earlier in the thread shows this).

Not to mention, if it was such a useful technique, why not teach it to other members of the Z-Fighter group since KKx20 Gohan SSJ2 would have pwned the shits out Cell.

Nobody else learns it because they don't need it. It's a plot device, just like every source of power. Vegeta is already an elite (natural strength), Gohan has massive potential (hidden strength), Goku has Kaioken (hard work). You'll see in the manga that Goku teaches Gohan his thematic principle of hard work to bring out his son's hidden strength in the RoSaT.

[Joe Android 15]

Hurray for Akane...

Why is this still going on lol

[Deo]

No you didn't. What the heck.

Final form Freiza counts as anything and everything before his muscles explode out like giant bubbles, the percentages just show his level of actual effort. Some might even argue that includes that form, but I don't.

[Nori]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
Toriyama always has two characters that are of equal power fight in the end.

KKx10 Goku = final form Freiza
KKx20 Goku = half-power final form Freiza
SSJ Goku = full power final form Freiza

The plot dictates the winner.

In the manga, Goku started fighting with Kaioken x10 and Freiza was only at or near one-quarter of his full strength. Then Freiza upped himself to half-power and Goku had to use the Kaioken x20, but he only had the stamina for one attack with a Kamehameha. Freiza said it almost killed him but since Goku couldn't fight anymore it didn't really matter, so Freiza > Goku before SSJ.

And that just proved my side of the fight.

XD. I wasn't here to say Frieza was teh suckorz and Goku could own him. I said Goku was on par with Final Form Frieza, which was proven.

15: My awesomeness rubbed off which mixed with the coolness of Kakarot and made the monster that is this thread.

[Deo]

...No...no it wasn't. I already stated it.

Percentage = how much effort.

Just because it's worded like that doesn't mean 50% and 75% are different forms. They're the same form. Final Form Freiza could DESTROY Goku, he would just have to stop toying with him and TRY.

You did not prove anything.

[Nori]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
Toriyama always has two characters that are of equal power fight in the end.

KKx10 Goku = final form Freiza
KKx20 Goku = half-power final form Freiza
SSJ Goku = full power final form Freiza

The plot dictates the winner.

In the manga, Goku started fighting with Kaioken x10 and Freiza was only at or near one-quarter of his full strength. Then Freiza upped himself to half-power and Goku had to use the Kaioken x20, but he only had the stamina for one attack with a Kamehameha. Freiza said it almost killed him but since Goku couldn't fight anymore it didn't really matter, so Freiza > Goku before SSJ.

And that just proved my side of the fight.

XD. I wasn't here to say Frieza was teh suckorz and Goku could own him. I said Goku was on par with Final Form Frieza, which was proven.

[Deo]

You're not making any sense.

50% and 75% are both Final Form Freiza. Different levels of effort. If Freiza tried, still being final form Freiza, just putting in effort, Goku would = dead.

[Pink Underoo]

No, Goku lost with both the Kaioken x10 and Kaioken x20. So Freiza > Goku - SSJ =\

[Deo]

So the guy you were just quoting as your 'proof' disagrees with you. >_>

[Drake]

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
Go to hell, bitch.

The Kaioken is essentially Goku's own power, since he's the only one in the entire manga that can use it. It's just a plot device that enables him to fight with the new villians who would be far, far beyond him otherwise.

It was a plot device to do just that, but it was replaced by Super Saiyajin later on since it had obvious limitations- one being it killed him when used at max power.

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
During the first chapters with his battle against Freiza Goku was using Kaioken x10 (Freiza says he can tell that Goku is holding back, which is true because Goku's only using half his power). Kaioken x20 was his limit, just like Kaioken x4 was the limit on earth. He made one Kamehameha attack with it, failed, and broke out the Spirit Bomb because he was too drained to do otherwise. (the pictures I posted earlier in the thread shows this).

Kaioken x20 was his limit, but it wasn't anything like KKx4. The Kaioken x20 was closer to when Goku used a 3 times Kaioken, as his reaction and statements are the same however as we also see- his body didn't have the same reaction. When using it against Furiza he was drained but his body didn't start to fall apart like it did in the Saiyajin saga which implied he could have gone further- but he didn't.

Why? Because going past x20 was likely impossible it was the complete mastery of the technique.

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
Nobody else learns it because they don't need it. It's a plot device, just like every source of power. Vegeta is already an elite (natural strength), Gohan has massive potential (hidden strength), Goku has Kaioken (hard work). You'll see in the manga that Goku teaches Gohan his thematic principle of hard work to bring out his son's hidden strength in the RoSaT.

It was was a plot device, which was later replaced by SSJ which is why no one was taught it- as it was ineffective and damaging to your body. Also, Goku isn't a genius of hardwork- this isn't Naruto, he was considered a genius fighter with unlimited potential and exhibited as such with his ability to rapidly adapt and grow in strength throughout the entire manga.