The epic Freiza vs Goku debate

[Nori]

I'm just trying to be annoying. I said Goku could be on Par with Final Form Frieza, which he was.

The whole argument started when I said that Goku was stronger then Gohan. I proved my point by showing that Goku *is* on par with Final Form Frieza. While Gohan with anger didn't even harm Frieza.

Par doesn't mean Win. It means around the same level.

Like I said, I won my side of the argument. Not the side that Goku could beat Frieza.

[Deo]

par

1. Equal value; equality of nominal and actual value; the value expressed on the face or in the words of a certificate of value, as a bond or other commercial paper.
2. Equality of condition or circumstances.
3. (Golf) The allotted number of strokes to reach the hole.

He needs to make this shot for par.

4. Young salmon (also spelled parr)

They were not equal. Freiza at 75% > Goku. Therefore, they were not on par.

[Nori]

I'm satisfied with my results.

[Deo]

I'm pretty sure that you were proven wrong and just can't admit it.

But as long as we're both satisfied.

[Nori]

XD. I'd admit if I thought myself in the wrong. I always do.

But all the evidence I'v found has satisfied me. You can always continue with your part.

I'm going to go do something important. Talk to you later.

[Deo]

Evidence.

Goku + 20x Kaioken = weaker then Freiza.

20x Kaioken = Goku's limit.

Goku's limit = very difficult to maintain and probably wouldn't go on for more then a few minutes.

Thus, Goku would have to go all out to even force Freiza to actually have to defend himself in the slightest.

Freiza is still far stronger at an easily maintained power level then Goku is. Goku would have to fight on a level of almost self destructive scale to stand a chance against Freiza at a comfortable level.

Thus, the evidence supports me.

[Drake]

I don't see how you can believe what you say to be true. Furiza at 50% of his Max power pushed Goku into going Max Power and when using one of his strongest attacks it was completely nullified with one hand by Furiza- while he admitted it was dangerous it really only pissed him off which made him retaliate.

Hell Goku even realizes afterwards that a KKx20 is not going to be able to beat 50% Furiza.

[Nori]

I never said Goku had to beat him, or implied that he would win, or whatever. I said that Goku was on par; able to compete with him. Which Goku was.

[Deo]

...no he wasn't.

We just said. He wasn't able to beat 50% Freiza with even Kaioken x 20.

And Freiza went up to 75% while still being 'Final Form Freiza'.

If he couldn't even scratch 50%, he'd get totally raped by 75%.

I don't understand why you don't get that.

[Nori]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori
I never said Goku had to beat him, or implied that he would win, or whatever. I said that Goku was on par; able to compete with him. Which Goku was.

If Goku couldn't even compete with him, the battle would have been *exactly* like what happened with Vegeta.

[Drake]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori
I never said Goku had to beat him, or implied that he would win, or whatever. I said that Goku was on par; able to compete with him. Which Goku was.

No, he wasn't. Being on Par, or able to compete would mean they were on some kind of even ground which they weren't. Furiza was faster and stronger than Goku, and even when he put everything he had behind an attack it was stopped and nullified by Furiza who barely got hurt.

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori

If Goku couldn't even compete with him, the battle would have been *exactly* like what happened with Vegeta.

Goku was closer to being on Par with Vegeta than he was with Furiza. In the saiyajin Saga, Goku gets numerous hits on Vegeta and even over powers Vegeta's strongest attack. In comparison, Goku gets a suprise combo on Furiza and then goes about using his strongest attack, only to have it crushed like a bug with one hand.

[Deo]

He could compete with 25% Freiza.

Whoop-dee-doo.

Final Form means anything up to 75%.

Even his max power was below 50% Freiza, therefore, they weren't matched up in the slightest. Freiza just had to restrain himself a bit less to toy with Goku.

[Nori]

Originally posted by Kakarot

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori
I never said Goku had to beat him, or implied that he would win, or whatever. I said that Goku was on par; able to compete with him. Which Goku was.

No, he wasn't. Being on Par, or able to compete would mean they were on some kind of even ground which they weren't. Furiza was faster and stronger than Goku, and even when he put everything he had behind an attack it was stopped and nullified by Furiza who barely got hurt.

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori

If Goku couldn't even compete with him, the battle would have been *exactly* like what happened with Vegeta.

Goku was closer to being on Par with Vegeta than he was with Furiza. In the saiyajin Saga, Goku gets numerous hits on Vegeta and even over powers Vegeta's strongest attack. In comparison, Goku gets a suprise combo on Furiza and then goes about using his strongest attack, only to have it crushed like a bug with one hand.

So your trying to say that Goku was around the same strength as a individual who couldn't even see Frieza most of the time?

When Goku could hit Frieza and block his attacks?

[Deo]

He was talking about Saiyan Saga Vegeta.

He even said so.

And like we said. Freiza...toying...holding back. Not trying.

Does this not mean anything to you yet? I don't know how much clearer we can be.

[Nori]

..So he compared Goku to a even weaker form of Vegeta?

[Nori]

Originally posted by Kollifum
He could compete with 25% Freiza.

Whoop-dee-doo.

Final Form means anything up to 75%.

Even his max power was below 50% Freiza, therefore, they weren't matched up in the slightest. Freiza just had to restrain himself a bit less to toy with Goku.

Actually, it does. That's what I'v been trying to say all along.

[Drake]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori
When Goku could hit Frieza and block his attacks?

Furiza was toying with Goku, even at 50% he was playing around. He did things like fight Goku without using his hand, however when Goku pissed him off with that Kamehameha Furiza got semi-serious and bitch slapped Goku around.

[Pink Underoo]

Originally posted by Kakarot

It was a plot device to do just that, but it was replaced by Super Saiyajin later on since it had obvious limitations- one being it killed him when used at max power.

I'm not saying that Kaioken is better than SSJ, but Goku would never have had the power to become SSJ if he didn't use Kaioken to ascend to the such an ungodly level that Toriyama stopped giving character power levels. I'm only following the theme set by Toriyama: that without hard work (which is embodied by sheer training early in the manga, and Kaioken becomes a part of that) Goku is just a low-class fighter compared to everyone else.

Kaioken x20 was his limit, but it wasn't anything like KKx4. The Kaioken x20 was closer to when Goku used a 3 times Kaioken, as his reaction and statements are the same however as we also see- his body didn't have the same reaction. When using it against Furiza he was drained but his body didn't start to fall apart like it did in the Saiyajin saga which implied he could have gone further- but he didn't.

Why? Because going past x20 was likely impossible it was the complete mastery of the technique.

I compared KKx20 to KKx4 because all of the plot-relevence is identical. If you want to get semantical, then I contest that Goku's use of Kaioken x20 wasn't as horrible as Kaioken x4 because he was just better at using it. But just like Kaioken x4, even though that's his limit at that time it doesn't mean that's his limit forever.

The negative effects of Kaioken, which Goku learned largely because he was Saiyan and could adapt to them, could simply be negated by the ultimate power of the Saiyan's golden transformation, among other things (like how after the Genki Dama Goku was so tired he couldn't stand up, but transforming into SSJ restored his stamina completely). But I didn't want to go there because this sort of discussion breaks down to fandom which leads to insanity. ~_~

It was was a plot device, which was later replaced by SSJ which is why no one was taught it- as it was ineffective and damaging to your body. Also, Goku isn't a genius of hardwork- this isn't Naruto, he was considered a genius fighter with unlimited potential and exhibited as such with his ability to rapidly adapt and grow in strength throughout the entire manga.

You're so wrong it hurts ;_; even in Naruto, Naruto has a degree of abnormal power in the form of the Kyuubi but he's still considered as one of the characters that implements "hard work."

Goku's potential is likewise just the part of his character that makes his hard work so effective. In the very first chapter we see Goku breaking logs apart, catching giant man-eating fish, and throwing a car over with his bare hands. Of course it can partially be attributed to latent potential, but it shows that his daily chores in life are a super training regimen.

This is expounding on when Roshi tutors him for the 21st tournament and he grows stronger by delivering milk while wearing a heavy turtle shell and digging dirt fields barehanded, when he goes searching for the Dragonballs as training for the 22nd tournament and he becomes even stronger, fighting Piccolo Daioumon and more training before the 23rd tournament and he becomes stronger than Kami, when he finally dies and goes to Kaiosama's and gets supernatural training in Kaioken, training at x100 gravity and quickly improving the "God Power" with SSJ, etc, etc and so forth. HARD WORK, MUTHAFUKA

[Deo]

...

He meant Saiyan Saga Goku. He was comparing the power level difference and Goku's use of Kaioken in the Saiyan Saga vs Vegeta, to the power level difference and usage of Kaioken against Freiza.

Vegeta outclassed Goku immensely, but not as much as Freiza. Goku was on par with Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga, Goku was a bum compared to Freiza, even with 20x Kaioken, which couldn't even damage 50% Freiza.

Why...don't you get this? It's obvious, simple and direct.

[Nori]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori

Originally posted by Kollifum
He could compete with 25% Freiza.

Whoop-dee-doo.

Final Form means anything up to 75%.

Even his max power was below 50% Freiza, therefore, they weren't matched up in the slightest. Freiza just had to restrain himself a bit less to toy with Goku.

Actually, it does. That's what I'v been trying to say all along.