Nubbe Centre

[Jonathan Meer]

His AP ratios aren't THAT bad. They aren't stellar, no. But they're not abysmal either.

Endgame Ryze is going to have about 4000 mana. Let's cut it to 3500, just to be pessimistic. If we're assuming AA already figures into that total, you're getting 150 AP from the item (105 from the passive, 45 from the item itself). That's going to add 30 damage to each Q, 90 damage to each W, and 52 damage to each E bounce. For each run-through of his full combo (QWQEQRQWQEQ), we're talking 464 extra damage. That is not minor.

With Manamune, we're talking 70 additional attack damage. Now, Ryze is ONLY going to be auto-attacking once his full combo is done, so for MM to be effective, Ryze has to survive to the end of the teamfight, whereas AA is effective from the beginning. Further, Ryze is only going to get in at most two auto-attacks before his secondary combo (QWQEQ) is once again available (and two seems generous, considering his unadjusted attack speed). And there, perhaps he'll get another two auto-attacks.

You do lose a bit of tower-takedown-ability with AA over MM; 40% of 150 is 60 additional turret damage, versus the full 70 of the manamune's bonus damage. But that's not enough to be noticeable, and certainly doesn't outweigh the AP of Archangel's.

[Ashe]

Ryze shouldn't really enter a state of "full combo is done" anyway, given his passive. That said, in my perspective, despite his E (the only ability I know of with an AP ratio) being weaker, we have to account for the bounces when considering its damage. That said, I've generally gotten Manamune but constantly question myself between the two.

[John Doe]

Plus the magic pen you'll have with runes/masteries.

[Jonathan Meer]

His passive puts him through the whole 11 string-burst, but it eventually results in waiting for Q to come back off cooldown. With 39% CDR (what I generally end up with on him, between runes and Frozen Heart and Overload CDR, sans blue), it's just over 2 seconds between the cooldown on Qs. That's enough time for two autoattacks (almost exactly, but with the somewhat sluggish animation time, that second one is rubbing up against a cooled Q).

So, you get your 11 string-burst (QWQEQRQWQEQ), then 2.1 seconds, then your 5 string-burst (QWQEQ). You usually don't get to use your ult in a team-fight more than once.

[Jonathan Meer]

Plus the magic pen you'll have with runes/masteries.

Yes, that. Forgot about that.

Whereas there'll be no corresponding ArmorPen.

[Kaden]

It's not a one-is-better-than-the-other thing. You can mathcraft the comparison all you want, but it will ultimately come down to preference. There are also divergent builds that work off of RoA + Archangel's and Manamune + Sheen.

Regardless, AA/Manamune should be the absolute last thing you're buying on Ryze's core anyway. The extra damage to towers is more valuable than the extra damage to champs by the time you're finishing either of those items.

Ryze shouldn't really enter a state of "full combo is done" anyway, given his passive. That said, in my perspective, despite his E (the only ability I know of with an AP ratio) being weaker, we have to account for the bounces when considering its damage. That said, I've generally gotten Manamune but constantly question myself between the two.

Q > R > Q > W >Q > E > Q leaves you with about 3 seconds until your next Q > W > Q assuming you have ~30% CDR (Frozen Heart + masteries).

[Kaden]

You do lose a bit of tower-takedown-ability with AA over MM; 40% of 150 is 60 additional turret damage, versus the full 70 of the manamune's bonus damage. But that's not enough to be noticeable, and certainly doesn't outweigh the AP of Archangel's.

So you know, your damage to towers only factors in AP if 40% of your AP is higher than your AD. You'll get 0 bonus tower damage with an AA versus the 90 (given your numbers) you'd get from Manamune.

EDIT: I don't build Manamune because the mathcraft came out in its favor. I build it because I've played a lot of Ryze and found it to be a more useful end-game item.

[Mal Nova]

Ryze is a 'Get all the Mana you can and fuck AP' Champ i tohught? It's what the GUide I read said....

[Kaden]

His AP ratios aren't THAT bad. They aren't stellar, no. But they're not abysmal either.

Just wanted to point out that you said .2 and .35 are not abysmal ratios.

=P

[Jonathan Meer]

It's not a one-is-better-than-the-other thing. You can mathcraft the comparison all you want, but it will ultimately come down to preference. There are also divergent builds that work off of RoA + Archangel's and Manamune + Sheen.

Regardless, AA/Manamune should be the absolute last thing you're buying on Ryze's core anyway. The extra damage to towers is more valuable than the extra damage to champs by the time you're finishing either of those items.

Q > R > Q > W >Q > E > Q leaves you with about 4 seconds until your next Q > W > Q assuming you have ~30% CDR (Frozen Heart + masteries).

Frozen Heart + masteries + Overload CDR = 39% CDR

AA/MM is def the last thing to buy

I stopped building RoA because you made fun of me for it one game, and now I'm almost certain I need to get back into it.

Never would've thought Sheen on Ryze. Into Lich Bane?

I'm pretty damn positive AA is much more optimal than MM.

[Kaden]

Never would've thought Sheen on Ryze. Into Lich Bane?

Trinity Force

I'm pretty damn positive AA is much more optimal than MM.

It's such a minor difference that this discussion is annoying. You play both of them, in equally even games, and you'll notice virtually no difference. AA gives you some stuff, mune gives you other stuff. You can't say "this is flat better" because it simply isn't.

EDIT: Banshee's > RoA on Ryze. More survival = more spell casts.

[John Doe]

By end game you're either balling up and pushing, balling up and baroning, or balling up and team fighting. If you try to split push late game as a champ that has no escapes, you'll either get killed or get your team killed. I still think archangel's is better but I can see why you'd pick manamune over it now.

Let's move back to Heimerdinger and how he's the best jungler in the game.

[Jonathan Meer]

So you know, your damage to towers only factors in AP if 40% of your AP is higher than your AD. You'll get 0 bonus tower damage with an AA versus the 90 (given your numbers) you'd get from Manamune.

Ryze's endgame AD is about 100; AA provides about 150 AP given the pessimistic end-game mana total from before.

EDIT: I don't build Manamune because the mathcraft came out in its favor. I build it because I've played a lot of Ryze and found it to be a more useful end-game item.

I can't compete with this =(

Just wanted to point out that you said .2 and .35 are not abysmal ratios.

=P

Considering you can spit out 6 Q's in about 4 or 5 seconds, 0.2 isn't bad at all.

Can't really speak for the 0.35 though. You only get that twice =p

[Mal Nova]

He looks like ass>_>

[Jonathan Meer]

It's such a minor difference that this discussion is annoying. You play both of them, in equally even games, and you'll notice virtually no difference. AA gives you some stuff, mune gives you other stuff. You can't say "this is flat better" because it simply isn't.

I DISAGREE, but k

EDIT: Banshee's > RoA on Ryze. More survival = more spell casts.

Why not have both? Full RoA is a damn-good chunk of mana and hp. AND AP =D =D =D

[Rafael]

I think the lesson from all this is still buff Brand.

[Kaden]

I can't compete with this =(

Shouldn't be a competition.

when i said before that i wasn't going to be vocal about advice, this was an exact example of why. instead of looking at what was said by someone who's played way too much of this game and saying "i would not have done that, interesting" it just feels like non stop arguments.

I'm not, like, mad of pissy or anything, this was just a really good example if what had been happening on a regular basis.

[Jonathan Meer]

That's pretty damn condescending. You're a great player, way better than I am, but I'm going to be fucking critical of everything ANYONE tells me at this point (unless it's something that is clearly correct, or something I have no understanding of whatsoever, as in the way of jungling a few weeks ago). And if it withstands the criticism, then I'll take it on. Part of my argumentativeness is to see if I can tear down the advice.

99% of what you say, I'm onboard with. This is in the 1%.

[Josh]

EDIT: Banshee's > RoA on Ryze. More survival = more spell casts.

Wait, are you talking about a third ROA? Because I was thinking, AA/ROA/(ROA||Void Staff)/mercs/frozen/banshee

[Ashe]

Q > R > Q > W >Q > E > Q leaves you with about 3 seconds until your next Q > W > Q assuming you have ~30% CDR (Frozen Heart + masteries).

Keep in mind how long that takes to generally come out with you standing still the entire time and not shifting positions or in any way getting silenced, knocked up, interrupted in any other way during a team fight. Not like, saying you are wrong, but I did want to mention it for the awareness of anyone reading.

--

I tend to get Banshee's over RoA everytime on Ryze.

*snip*