The Plastic Continent

[Waffuru]

Does recycling help? We recycle our stuff in here.

Yes. Most of the plastics that end up in the ocean are from landfills, recycling will help reduce plastics in landfills.

[Jesper]

To reiterate my earlier point, fuck those reusable tote bags. Not the paper ones, but the sack cloth ones they hand out over here. You know, the ones that tear easily and smell bad. Paper tears easily, too, but they're much cheaper.

Anyway...the biggest enemy in the war against synthetics is the plastic water bottle. Really, it's the biggest enemy in the war against logic. Why you would buy water that is less regulated than most city water is beyond me. In other words, there's nothing healthier about bottled water, and nothing is added to make it taste better, aside from maybe your mind playing tricks on you because you're paying for it. Whatever inconvenience that might come from avoiding bottles is probably worth it.

[Psyren]

Below is a exert from a website I used in a report from college.

Each year, 14 million trees are cut down to make just 10 million paper bags.



According to the American Forest & Paper Association, 2007 marked an all-time high of 56% for the recycling of paper consumed in the U.S. Curbside paper collection is easy and readily available in most parts of the country. While I applaud the consumer and the industry for reaching this goal and beyond (the industries goal is 60% by 2012) I’d like to point out that the manufacturing of paper products, like plastic, consumes natural resources and creates pollution. As a matter of fact, the production of a paper bag consumes 1 gallon of water (yep, per bag) equating to 50 times that of plastic bags. Yikes!

How does a paper bag get from forest to grocery store? Trees are found, marked and felled. Machinery is then used to remove the logs from the forest floor – whether by logging or, in more remote areas, helicopters.

Machinery requires fossil fuels and roads (which destroy habitat) thereby creating stress on the forests’ inhabitants (even logging a small area has a large impact on the entire ecological chain in surrounding areas).

Trees must dry at least three years before they can be used to make paper. Once aged, machinery is used to strip the bark, which is then chipped into 1 inch squares and cooked under tremendous heat and pressure. This wood stew is then ‘digested’ with a limestone and sulfurous acid for eight hours. The steam and moisture is vented to the outside atmosphere, and the original wood becomes pulp. It takes approximately three tons of wood chips to make one ton of pulp.

The pulp is then washed and bleached, both stages requiring thousands of gallons of clean water. Coloring is added to more water, and is then combined in a ratio of 1 part pulp to 400 parts water to make paper. The pulp/water mixture is dumped onto a web of bronze wires, the water showers through, leaving the pulp to dry. This final product is then rolled into paper.

Whew! What a lot of resources to just make the paper. We must include all of the chemicals, electricity, and fossil fuels used in the shipment of this raw material and in the production and shipment of a finished paper bag.

Conclusion....No matter which one you use a enviromentalist is going to flog you and degrage you.

Imagine this if you will. Your standing in a wide open feild and two people are walking towards you very angry looking.Each take a place at one of your sides.

"Dont use plastic bags they kill animals and dont biodegrade! Use paper or reusable bags!"

Next guy

"Dont listen to him by using paper bags your killing habitats and many animals your doing more damage than good use plastic or reuseable bags!!"

Suprise visitor

"Dont listen to them, use paper or plastic bags because reuseable bags manufactured in China, shipped thousands of miles overseas, made with plastic and could take years to decompose. It's also the hot "green" giveaway of the moment: the reusable shopping bag.

The bags usually are printed with environmental slogans as well as corporate logos and pitched as earth-friendly substitutes for the billions of disposable plastic bags that wind up in landfills every year. Home Depot distributed 500,000 free reusable shopping bags last April on Earth Day, and Wal-Mart gave away one million. One line of bags features tags that read, "Saving the World One Bag at a Time."

But well-meaning companies and consumers are finding that shopping bags, like biofuels, are another area where it's complicated to go green. "If you don't reuse them, you're actually worse off by taking one of them," says Bob Lilienfeld, author of the Use Less Stuff Report, an online newsletter about waste prevention. And because many of the bags are made from heavier material, they're also likely to sit longer in landfills than their thinner, disposable cousins, according to Ned Thomas, who heads the department of material science and engineering at Massachusetts Institute of Technology


No matter what you do , someone is going to hate you and try and make a "valid point" against whatever you choose. Heres the thing I decided to do.

I dont use paper bags. I dont use Plastic bags. I dont use reuseable bags?

Well then Mr. Justin what do you use to get your groceries?

I take my filled cart to the register and instead of placing my items in bags they place them back in my cart. OH MY!! I then roll my cart outside and unload all my grocerys into empty milk crates. I drive home and carry the crates in one at a time empty them out into the spots there supposed to go and then I return my crates back to my vehicle for a later use.

This dosent work for everyone. And see Im using plastic. But Im using the same plastic that is used to make bags but the crates will last me many many years more than a bag or reuseable tote. I have had these crates for about four years now.

Now that my rant is complete. Feel free to bash and rip me apart as I am expecting so many to do. Have a nice day.

[Tyr]

I can honestly I say I didn't understand a word of what Sgt. Marks just said. In other news though, I believe I can't even ask for paper bags at the supermarkets in Denmark. They aint got none.

[Chase]

Anyway...the biggest enemy in the war against synthetics is the plastic water bottle. Really, it's the biggest enemy in the war against logic. Why you would buy water that is less regulated than most city water is beyond me. In other words, there's nothing healthier about bottled water, and nothing is added to make it taste better, aside from maybe your mind playing tricks on you because you're paying for it. Whatever inconvenience that might come from avoiding bottles is probably worth it.

Actually, I beg to differ. Here, at least, the water system is pretty much rudimentary and not really working properly. Hell, I'm rather sensitive to water bacteria or viruses, so as soon as I drink tap water for more than a week, I come down with throat issues. My doctor told me I should drink bottled water.

I don't know how it is out there, but bottled water is necessary here.

To be honest, it's not that I don't care about the environment and such, and I try to do my best, and not litter, recycle if possible, etc, but this plastic continent thing just makes me go 'meh'. It's something bigger than just me, and unless there's some group getting together about it, I don't feel like I can make a difference, so I won't attempt properly. Why hasn't there been a group made, for that matter?

[Vad]

Bottled water is how you bring aid to countries who don't have plumbing or to anyone when plumbing is availabe. IE: Hurricane Katrina. You can't pull the plug on a transport device for H2O. >.> It would defeat the purpose of any field equipment, for instance, canteens.

[Kaden]

Bottled water is how you bring aid to countries who don't have plumbing or to anyone when plumbing is availabe. IE: Hurricane Katrina. You can't pull the plug on a transport device for H2O. >.> It would defeat the purpose of any field equipment, for instance, canteens.

Either you completely missed his point, or think that you said something other than what you said.

[Vad]

Either you completely missed his point, or think that you said something other than what you said.

Most likely >.>

[Jesper]

Actually, I beg to differ. Here, at least, the water system is pretty much rudimentary and not really working properly. Hell, I'm rather sensitive to water bacteria or viruses, so as soon as I drink tap water for more than a week, I come down with throat issues. My doctor told me I should drink bottled water.

I don't know how it is out there, but bottled water is necessary here.

To be honest, it's not that I don't care about the environment and such, and I try to do my best, and not litter, recycle if possible, etc, but this plastic continent thing just makes me go 'meh'. It's something bigger than just me, and unless there's some group getting together about it, I don't feel like I can make a difference, so I won't attempt properly. Why hasn't there been a group made, for that matter?

Although I don't know enough to discredit that, I will say that I doubt it. In any case, I did say most city water, so I'm covered in that way.

And your doctor isn't necessarily an environmentalist. That plastic still isn't going anywhere.

[Chase]

Although I don't know enough to discredit that, I will say that I doubt it. In any case, I did say most city water, so I'm covered in that way.

And your doctor isn't necessarily an environmentalist. That plastic still isn't going anywhere.

In my city's case, it's a well-known fact among the locals. There's been tons of work on the main pipes, and they're presumably now clean and properly maintained. However the fact that the pipes inside each block are rusted, broken, dirty, patched, etc, basically nullify that work still, because now it's just getting contaminated at a different place. Yeah, work is being done, but it's not really enough. And yes, most world-wide cities aren't like this most likely.

Yeah, my doctor probably isn't an environmentalist, but assuming there was no plastic water bottle, wouldn't I basically be condemned to not being able to drink water properly? Or would you suggest I boil my water before drinking? Or maybe remake everything with glass bottles?

Bottled water is needed, and until we have a true 'green' material for containers and such, we'll still need bottles, and lots of them.

Really, I don't see how bottles are ending up in the ocean from landfills. I think I'm missing something here, but how exactly are they arriving there? Because if I remember correctly, there isn't someone throwing them out in the ocean.

[Jesper]

In my city's case, it's a well-known fact among the locals. There's been tons of work on the main pipes, and they're presumably now clean and properly maintained. However the fact that the pipes inside each block are rusted, broken, dirty, patched, etc, basically nullify that work still, because now it's just getting contaminated at a different place. Yeah, work is being done, but it's not really enough. And yes, most world-wide cities aren't like this most likely.

Yeah, my doctor probably isn't an environmentalist, but assuming there was no plastic water bottle, wouldn't I basically be condemned to not being able to drink water properly? Or would you suggest I boil my water before drinking? Or maybe remake everything with glass bottles?

Bottled water is needed, and until we have a true 'green' material for containers and such, we'll still need bottles, and lots of them.

Really, I don't see how bottles are ending up in the ocean from landfills. I think I'm missing something here, but how exactly are they arriving there? Because if I remember correctly, there isn't someone throwing them out in the ocean.

But that's exactly what's happening; some land-based companies are dumping a majority of the harmful plastics into the ocean.

As for alternatives, you can always get a filter. Admittedly, those are made out of plastic, too, but it can go a long way in reducing the problem.

That's more or less my case, though. I'll agree to disagree.

[Chase]

But that's exactly what's happening; some land-based companies are dumping a majority of the harmful plastics into the ocean.

As for alternatives, you can always get a filter. Admittedly, those are made out of plastic, too, but it can go a long way in reducing the problem.

That's more or less my case, though. I'll agree to disagree.

Wait, so why are we arguing against plastic itself, when the real issue is that some idiots are dumping the plastic into the ocean? I fail to see how just recycling the plastic more instead of tossing it out wouldn't help a lot more and not require a change in our lifestyle. And, really, it doesn't seem like a temporary solution to me. Furthermore, fines and such for companies found dumping into the ocean.

Seriously, this is less of an environmentalist issue, and more of 'people being idiots'.

[Jesper]

The plastics in question aren't reusable.

[Chase]

The plastics in question aren't reusable.

"Sea turtles mistake plastic sandwich bags for jellyfish, and birds feed their young bottle caps"

As far as I remember, bags, caps, bottles, etcetera, are all recyclable. If they aren't, they should be, but I can't remember seeing any type of non-recyclable bottle being sold in any supermarket.

In my opinion, the solution to 'Companies are throwing plastic in the oceans.' isn't 'Stop using plastic so they don't have anything to throw.', but rather 'Punish the companies, or make them cease in some other way.'

[Jesper]

The problem isn't using plastic. You misunderstand my point. The point is moderation. You'd be surprised at how much plastic is used that doesn't need to be.

But yes, I do agree that some efforts should be made to make companies stop dumping shit in the ocean. But from that, another problem arises: where do they put it? Some of that plastic will stay around much longer than we will.

[Chase]

Moderation, I agree. Like I said earlier, I am doing my best in that regard, but you have to realise, most people aren't going to care. Because people are idiots.

Most of that plastic can be reused. If we end up with plastic that absolutely can not be reused, I don't think I'm at all qualified to speculate as to what could be done. But I'm sure people could find a way. They always do.

[Waffuru]

The problem is not with not being able to reuse the plastics, it's people throwing them into the trash.

There are some new PLA based Bioplastics being developed which are safe to burn and will compost under the right conditions but are currently more costly then traditional PET plastics. There is also fear that the PLA plastics will be mistakenly recycled with PET plastics which will ruin the entire batch.

If people would recycle their plastics the problem would stop growing. It still doesn't solve getting the tons of plastic already in the ocean out.

Only 24% of plastics are recycled versus 80% of paper products.