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Tyr · (This post was last modified: 09-06-2010, 08:02 PM by Tyr.)

Kaden Wrote:I actually said that twice already on this page of posts.

@Alura: It's very possible.

Maybe we have pages sorted differently, but I do not see that.

Also I meant to post something earlier today but apparently my computer decided to scrap the idea. My whole point is that Kog is a niche character and I find it sad that we seemingly can only get good characters who are niche characters, instead of like Garen who will DEMAAAACIAAAA your ass regardless of who you are. I realize that it's all part of picking and counterpicking but this is solo queue. I'm lucky if they can comprehend the roles of dps, tank and caster without them confusing it with the other ones.

edit: then I start new page. I iz too pro. Definitely not on this page though, ha-ha.

Belle Hibiki · 09-06-2010, 10:13 PM

Only thing I paid for was the champ that I was a big fan of in open beta (Mundo). Didn't feel like slogging through some games to get him.

Kaden · 09-06-2010, 10:33 PM

Kaden Wrote:currently-way-OP-because-of-the-retarded-meta champion!

Kaden Wrote:Bloodrazor is the auto-build for him right now because of the meta.

Every character is a niche character. They all fit into a distinct role in their own individual way. There will never be a time when team comp isn't based on which niches need to be filled. That's metagame.

Even outside of the current meta, Kog'Maw is a solid ranged DPS champion. No, he doesn't have the escape mechanics of a Tristana, Ezreal, or Corki, but there are ways around that. Kog is an infinitely better harasser because of his insane range. Like we've both said, he's stronger than any of the other ranged DPS character right now because of his skills.

A month ago, Ezreal was stronger than all of the other ranged DPS because of his skills. Ez is basically the definition of poke/kite and when people were playing heal/push teams, he was the go-to DPS.

Back in beta, TF, Sivir, and Twitch were the go-to ranged DPS because of their awesome map control, be it through pushing, stealth, or teleportation.

Tanks go through the same thing. Amumu is the tank when AoE is the dominant meta. Shen is great when the team is built for high mobility. And so on and so forth.

I could continue, but it all leads back to my original thesis: all champions are niche champions and which niches need to be filled is determined by the metagame. Even Garen, who you describe as an always-effective champion is simply potent because of the "we're all fairly tanky so it doesn't matter if anyone's actually a tank" metagame. He's decent DPS and decent tank, but not great at either and eventually that will keep people from picking him.

Now I'm sure you'll have some different opinions about specific champions mentioned, that's not even close to my point.

Tyr · (This post was last modified: 09-07-2010, 04:42 AM by Tyr.)

All your examples there were nerfed for being too good in general except Corki and Tristana (unsure about this actually, never read their notes). This is my point and it bothers me. I wish there would just be a few more characters that could really substitute and role. Granted there would probably be better alternatives, but just that they could.

I usually end up first pick (because solo queue wants me in an insane asylum) and what I pick should in theory make the rest of the team pick accordingly in order to support the other picks. Yet we all know that's not going to happen. So instead I try to take what I feel are general champions. They do well with most team compositions. Such characters could be Annie, Rammus (do less well against magic but still W supplies MR), Nidalee to some extent (Q scales with how low the target is in %), Tristana and sometimes Taric. If he's not banned for being an absolute douche.

I'm not complaining about the metagame shifts nor the champions released in order to counter these shifts, but I would just like something that could do well in a general fashion instead of having a team engineered with it or it being engineered against a team. I don't really see any great impact on the competitive scene by adding champions such as this, but it really would make solo queue just a little bit easier.

Kaden · (This post was last modified: 09-07-2010, 04:44 AM by Kaden.)

Leo Wrote:All your examples there were nerfed for being too good in general

That's exactly my point. "In general" is not how Riot wants champions to be good. All of those "nerfs" to the champions I mentioned were so that they stuck to their intended role instead of being able to do everything all the time regardless of their team composition. Once again, this goes back to my original point: champs are niche, that's just how it is.

What you want is the exact opposite of Riot's design philosophy. Does it make solo queue full of suck and fail? Yes. Is that going to change? No.

The best "in general" champions are the boring ones. Ashe and Yi are the best examples of characters that can do their thang pretty much regardless of the team comp.

Tyr · 09-07-2010, 04:46 AM

Yet their very archetype of casters do well in nearly all situations: Annie. She only requires minions to do well in lane phase. I don't get why we can't have another one like her. It's the damn icon for League of Legends in most people's eyes, why not effing go with more of that.

Other than that, I just really don't want this game to be PAPER SCISSOR ROCK - THE MOBA, especially because there tends to be only one kind of scissor or rock or paper at the moment and with bans that can screw up the paper scissor rock balancing quite a bit. If I ban scissor gl getting down my paper biatch.

Kaden · 09-07-2010, 05:43 AM

You want their design philosophy to be not their design philosophy.

ur doin it wrong

Tyr · 09-07-2010, 05:58 AM

If not, I'd rather they would be more consistant, maybe edit a few old champions to help counterpicking and maybe provide several options for the same niche or at the very least be less specific with their new champions' niche. Look at Urgot. He can trade himself to kill the other team's carry. That's useful for making it a 4v4 (unless they have Flash in which case his niche is being useless after 15 mins). Fortune seems to be a step in the right direction since I can't spot her niche by just looking at her skills but that may very well be for her huge knockers.

Kaden · 09-07-2010, 06:21 AM

Fortune is basically a ranged version of Kat. Assassin with an ult for team fights.

They are consistent. They're just not consistent in the way you want them to be.

Mr. Zhu · 09-07-2010, 09:53 AM

I think Fortune looks like a jungler.

Tyr · (This post was last modified: 09-07-2010, 02:01 PM by Tyr.)

Mr. Zhu Wrote:I think Fortune looks like a jungler.

How so?

Also Kaden, I don't see how they can be consistent if they leave champions that do not have a niche and where there's no real counter pick. I agree they're consistent with their new champions, but I just mean in terms of keeping the old ones up to date. I suggest we drop this now however, as even if we talk till the end of times, it wont do much. : o

Kaden · 09-07-2010, 07:50 PM

What I meant by "consistent" is that they're keeping champions confined to their niche. Yeah, some are more "general" than others (Ashe, Yi, Annie, Soraka, etc.) but that's to be expected. Some of the old champions definitely need touch-ups, and they're working on it, but for the most part I think they're fine.

And now it's dropped. Just clarifying what I meant.

If she lifesteals off of her Q -- which I suspect she will -- I could see her as a decent jungler. She'd just come racing out of a bush with massive movespeed for a nice, easy kill.

Belle Hibiki · 09-07-2010, 08:01 PM

I think Fortune looks like tits.

Also, what is Kassadin's niche. Aside from chasing.

Kaden · (This post was last modified: 09-07-2010, 08:26 PM by Kaden.)

His intended niche is melee DPS. What he actually is is more like anti-caster caster.

EDIT: To a lesser extent he's also decent anti-carry. He's a good counter-pick to Kog'Maw, for example.

Tyr · 09-07-2010, 08:57 PM

Belle Hibiki Wrote:I think Fortune looks like tits.

Also, what is Kassadin's niche. Aside from chasing.

True that. Because of this reason I was sorely disappointed when I saw the cowgirl skin. I actually expected more cow.

There's this decent Kassa(ssin) build going around where your intended job is to quickly take out persons by porting in or quickly do a lot of damage in a fight then swoop out. CLG followers might already know it.

http://clgaming.net/board/index.php?page...highlight=

It does work however the gold is hard to come by and as such last hitting is such a giant must. I don't agree with his summoners, but that's player's choice.

Kaden · 09-07-2010, 09:31 PM

I've seen that build a couple times now. It works if he gets snowballed, but as soon as he starts going down he usually doesn't get back up.

The problem with Kassadin is that he's a fairly high-priority target with very poor survivability. Riot refuses to work actual survivability into him -- understandably so -- which is why he will never be the melee DPS caster they want him to be. The idea of silence -> port -> slow -> auto-attack is fine in theory, but if you actually build him hybrid your spells aren't going to get you the kill and you'll just die while you're on CD. I can understand buying a Rageblade on him, but that's about it.