League of Legends

[Belle Hibiki]

If you think that the release schedule isn't focused around them making $$$, then I just don't know what to say to you. The fact that it is technically free is irrelevant - enough people buy Riot points to make it extremely desirable to pump out the champs.

While I agree that they want to make a competitive game, it seems a secondary goal. If balance was their #1, they would not have let Eve, and other current terrible champs, be so substandard for so long.

[Kami]

When I said

They can release characters every two weeks BECAUSE THEY AREN'T DOING ALL THE WORK IN TWO WEEKS THEY SIMPLY SPACE OUT THE RELEASE DATES! BUSINESS 101 BITCHES!

it was in reference to their business standards as opposed to rushing through a new character to launch out purely for game play improvement. I believe they have some decent business sense or they would not be where they are at the moment. They have a product people want, they add skins, they make money and make more stuff. I like how they run their business, I think it's an effective method to generate revenue and continues to fund further development of the game. Maybe getting Eve higher up on their to do list didn't happen because of newer features coming down the pipe (and you sound a little butt hurt about it since you keep mentioning her)

I also think the game initially being free is far from irrelevant. Did you buy a copy to get started? Nope. You downloaded it for free. And then the money comes rolling in via riot points.

[Kami]

Mordekaiser with Sunfire Cape and Force of Nature is a monster.

[Belle Hibiki]

I bring up Eve because she is the most prevalent example (that I can think of) of the business end of the model screwing with what I think should be the goals of design. Business and design can work in harmony, sometimes. I don't think that's the case here, though.

With the rate that they rebalance champs (pretty slow), I don't see how they can expect to keep the list in line when they're releasing a new champ every other week.

This opinion works under some assumptions though:

1) that the list does not have a finite end. I'm assuming Riot has not put themselves under a hard limit on how many champs they want out, since stopping champ production would likely result in a cut in their bottom line. I could only realistically see them doing this after they release something else to get from RP, or if the community grows so large that +xp +ip boosts or skins alone will be able to fund the project. (Gaming tournaments and fame help, too.)

2) that new champs have just as many balance issues as earlier champs. This is admittedly a more suspect assumption, as most recent champs seem alright. But then again - Urgot is almost universally panned and on the bottom of many tier lists.

3) their rate of rebalance remains steady.

If one, two and three are true - that is, they don't have an ending of champs, and the new champs have as many 'bad eggs' as the old ones do, and they can't fix those champs faster than they put out new bad champs, then I see the list eventually getting really bloated. (Shit, I think it's bloated already.)

What I'd like to see is a temporary end to new champ production somewhere in the near future for retuning, bringing non-tournament viable champs up to standard, and then a re-release of the LoL box with the then-current list of champions included. Then they could start up champ production again, with a huge foundation of solid champions.

[Kaden]

Evelynn is a fringe case to begin with. The reason it's taken them so long to remake the champion is that they don't want to break her from the role she's supposed to fill. It's a lot easier to whip something up from scratch than it is to change something so that it more effectively fills the same role without breaking the balance of the game.

A large part of your argument is based on them spending the time to make older champions "tournament viable." It's easier to pull up a couple of tier lists and see Twisted Fate in a solid Tier 3 (or worse, depending on the list) and just say "nope, he's not good enough," but that doesn't actually mean anything.

The WCG should be a great example that Riot has been spending time and effort keeping older champions "viable." The European team proved that, properly played, Twisted Fate, Kassadin, and Soraka, who were all very low on all the tier lists, can be just as effective. The problem wasn't the actual champion, but the skewed perspective that arose from the current meta. Look at Ezreal: he was the absolute forerunner of every single tier list during the poke/heal meta and now he's a low T1, high T2 on most lists. Yes, he's been toned down in terms of raw numbers, but not in a realistically debilitating way (not like, say, Shaco).

Obviously, our base opinions differ in regards to Riot's approach, and I'm not expecting either of us to just suddenly say "oh yeah, you're completely right, I never thought of it like that before," but I think a lot of it has to do with the following quote:

With the rate that they rebalance champs (pretty slow), I don't see how they can expect to keep the list in line when they're releasing a new champ every other week.

When you say "rebalance" it seems you're referring to what Riot calls "reworks" of older champions. Every time a patch hits and Taric's heal gets nerfed or Malzahar gets a buff, aren't those champions being "rebalanced?" It seems slow because Riot has said they try to be as cautious about changes as possible (especially after Xin Zhao, amirite?) so they make small tweaks over several patches, presumably -- hopefully! -- based on datamining that we don't have access to.

Malzahar, who I mentioned earlier, is actually a really good example of their approach to rebalance. He's been slowly tweaked over the past... what? Five or six patches now? Lowered mana costs, adjusted CDs, range buffs for his ult. The current Malz has significantly different numbers than the original one. He's been rebalanced to be in-line with other casters.

I don't really think there are any champions that need to be completely reworked, with the exceptions of Jax and Eve. If patch notes weren't constantly filled with adjustments to Nunu or Mundo or Tryndamere or Anivia or Corki, I would agree with you: Riot is far more interested in making money by pumping out new gimmicks than they are with keeping the game balanced. I definitely don't see that as the case, though.

[Kaden]

EDIT: Managed to double-post, but I was going to edit this in anyway, so I'll just put it here.

Having said all the above, I think a lot of people would be ok if they spaced new champs out a little further. Rapid0fire releases like MF > Sona > Swain > Lux can be kind of overwhelming.

It would be nice if they could stop working on new champs and have that magically speed up the release of the new map. Too bad it doesn't work like that.

[Ashe]

Just a point of clarification - I'm fairly sure champs have been released around every 3-4 weeks lately.

No matter what they do, someone is going to claim they are doing it because they are greedy corporate whores who don't care about their game beyond the money they are allegedly rolling in.

That's why some champs are retardedly good on release (Xin Zhao, Vladimir) and some champs are a shit pile (Urgot, Swain), and some seem fairly balanced and viable (Sona, MF), which are always debatable as some people get very skewed opinions based on how much they play as or against said champ.

That's why they frequently have a set of character adjustments for damn near every character in the list per patch.

That's why they are ALWAYS hiring new people to try to improve their infrastructure.

That's why they haven't made it against the ToS and a bannable offense to use custom skins for non-tournament games.

That's why they frequently rework items and include new items and don't charge money for some special unlock to use new items.

That's why they actually DO play their own game AND STREAM their in house games REGULARLY while interacting with their viewers.

That's why they are arranging tournaments and its now surpassing HoN in tournament play despite "everyone knowing" that HoN is "superior" because LoL doesn't have denying and lacks spectator mode and replays, which they've "had MORE than enough time to add in by now!"

---

Long story short, I get pretty frustrated by all the people that think "if its free, then you shouldn't ever charge for ANYTHING, even if it IS smart business! NEVER ASK FOR MONEY YOU SELLOUTS!" They have overhead to pay for as well as a goal to make decent profit, and they aren't going to do that as a consistent online game (as opposed to a sell per box method of making money) and expect to stay in business long if they are trying to simply roll in cash. This claim is ridiculous. Do people REALLY think that the average worker at Riot (or even Blizzard) is simply wiping their ass with $100 bills? I could accept an upper CEO of something large (possssssibly Blizzard, definitely Bobby Kotick) but people make this claim every time someone sees an opportunity to actually make a living on something. I'm surprised people aren't raging about the MineCraft creator yet.

They've recreated some champs multiple times in attempts to fix them, but in a lot of situations its about perception (we've been reamed by and even won alongside multiple, MULTIPLE Eves lately. This IS A REPEAT OCCURRENCE, not some once or twice fluke. Is she the best viable character on a team? No, that's how "best in slot/role" systems turn out. But that doesn't stop her, or Urgot, or even Jax, from completely carrying a game at times. This happens to good players, this happens to bad players. This happens to all players.)

Its not like they are getting slipped loads of cash to not push this Magical Christmas Land "Make all 51ish characters harmoniously in sync with each other so that teams for tournaments can literally be picked by all hitting the random button, as all are of absolutely equal viability in every situation and circumstance and this includes team makeup" button. Sad truth is, there is a lot more to this than any of us see happen, and its easy to sit back in our arm chairs and say "the answer is so simple! All it takes is this! Fix it this way and everyone will be happy! Because if they don't agree with me, then they are out of their minds!", as the common forum mentality tends to be for any such game at any location.

[John Doe]

Yo dawgs I don't know how to play the Gragas so I watched this and I fucking blap blap peace!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjJmFHzlzBc

[Belle Hibiki]

i don't even know if triangles a shape nigga i ain't pass geometries nigga

best

[Ashe]

got my my nigga sense tingling, I know there's a black guy in this bush, look at that, fuckin' drive by nigga, WTF WTF

Also, I cracked up at how Baron just one shot's his low level ass.

[John Doe]

Just went move speed Rammus. Boots of Mobility and 5 Phantom Dancers. The result?

26/16/16.

I'd also like to add that we had a feeder Tryn AND a leaver Mord. I am a motherfucker.

Edit: A video that's somewhat related to the above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2pNIekrPKM

[Ashe]

I... want all of the Halloween skins, and I don't know which ones I want more.

I'm going to have to do like I did last Christmas - make sure to buy the limited edition ones first. That said, I most like Cat-erina, Lollypoppy (yes, I'm getting that, fear me), and kinda a crossup of Pumpkinhead Fiddlesticks, Nosferatu Vlad, and... Mundo Mundo (I cracked up at this conceptually, even if the skin isn't anything special). Zombie Ryze is kinda cool too, but I NEVER play Ryze (No real reason against him, I just don't find myself doing so).

[Belle Hibiki]

People don't play Ryze because the idea of a fragile caster that has to get almost point blank with meleers to unleash his shit is pretty bad.

At least that's what I've been told.

[Ashe]

People don't play Ryze because the idea of a fragile caster that has to get almost point blank with meleers to unleash his shit is pretty bad.

At least that's what I've been told.

I don't have a reason other than that he just doesn't "feel fun" to me.

[Kaden]

He's a one-trick pony. Even more-so than Annie (who can at least mix up her stuns to throw opponents off-guard) or Anivia (who can wall or skill shot to bait people into her ult). You walk up to someone then ult -> cage -> damage spells. Even with his passive, his cooldowns are just too long. If that combo doesn't kill whoever you target, you better hope ZRing is up.

Some first thoughts looking at the patch notes: FUCK yes! Garen can't spin to kill wards. Holy shit the days of the Garen bush are over.

No really strong feelings about the rest of the changes at the moment. I like the changes to Eve, I guess. Too bad the remake didn't get to live this time; oh well. I think the Jax changes are pretty awesome (soooooo glad they didn't make his ult activate for full stacks). I like Tryndamere buffs. MF nerfs are a little sad, but probably called for. Fairly big buff to Katarina with that one change. Also a pretty big indirect buff to AD Ez, Urgot, AD Kat, MF, etc. with the change to Last Whisper. That was already an Attack Damage standard and now it's that much better.

Easily my favorite change:

Pentakill Mordekaiser's size has been increased

[Kami]

Then I clearly need to have Pentakill Mordekaiser

[Orion]

I... want all of the Halloween skins, and I don't know which ones I want more.

I was really disappointed. The only one of that lot I would play is Ryze, and there's better casters than him.

[Tyr]

Teeeeeeeeeeemo! :o

[Mr. Zhu]

Just went move speed Rammus. Boots of Mobility and 5 Phantom Dancers. The result?

26/16/16.

I'd also like to add that we had a feeder Tryn AND a leaver Mord. I am a motherfucker.

Edit: A video that's somewhat related to the above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2pNIekrPKM

You really had me there.

[John Doe]

You really had me there.

Tch, we almost had it.

In other news, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ss4r-t8YiM