Using Power-Level to Determine Fights

[Sigfried Hunin]

No one. Mal likes to talk himself up a lot.

AH. Ok. Thanks man.

[Celena]

That's basically why I advocate a system that closes the power gap so there are no 500 v 10,000 PL fights, that way it's always plausible IC for the weaker person to win.

Exactly.

[Kaden]

Oh man. I missed you, Mal.

<3

At the very least, there's a definite consensus here. That's extremely helpful.

[John Doe]

Edit: I still have yet to see someone say a reasn for the "No" answer...

I'd assume the biggest argument for the "No" answer would be that, even if there is a large gap between PL, the better writer should always win. Power level and techs would then fall under RP fodder, as a result. It's a good choice if this site was strictly focused on the writing aspect.

Personally, I can't decide between yes and no, so I'll just go with the flow either way (which is how I feel about most of these issues). Not the most helpful stance, but I'll take it.

[Victoria]

I always liked having a number. It gave me a guide, and it gave me motivation. I agree with everything that's been said, I also sort of agree with Josh. If I'm only at 500 and JoSmo is 10,000, I should be wetting myself.

I remember the old days when Vegeta and Koola scared the crap out of me, hunting me, because I knew that I had NO chance against them.

We don't really have that any more. I'm not a hugh fan of no power level. If I'm not strong enough, I'll try writing my butt off, if I lose I'll hit the training room .

[Dehan]

I always liked having a number. It gave me a guide, and it gave me motivation. I agree with everything that's been said, I also sort of agree with Josh. If I'm only at 500 and JoSmo is 10,000, I should be wetting myself.

I remember the old days when Vegeta and Koola scared the crap out of me, hunting me, because I knew that I had NO chance against them.

We don't really have that any more. I'm not a hugh fan of no power level. If I'm not strong enough, I'll try writing my butt off, if I lose I'll hit the training room .

This is the kind of motivation that I'd have. And it gives you a clear indication of how to rp, most times. If you're almost equal in pl you know how to write, like Vic said if you're lower...way low and you're up against someone twice or more your pl you know where you stand(most likely).

[Geeli Ou]

I like how CA influences RPing. I agree with that, obviously, but I don't think that CA should determine an automatic loss. Because then that kind of brings things back to that disincentive to roleplay. Why would a new person join, starting at 500 CA, if he knew he could never come come to harming Kaden. He's not competitive. Sure, in fights he'd roleplay getting his ass kicked, and that's fine. But CA should not be as important to fight outcomes as writing quality.

I was thinking of something that utilized CA tiers, like we used to have, but tiers would determine outcomes of fights. So say you had CA tiers 1-10 or whatever. And, my personal opinion here is that CA should account for roughly 25% of a fights outcome (for the sake of arguement), while writing ability should count for like 75%.

You could do something like CATier(.25) + WritingScore(.75). So for instance, say a new guy, who would obviously be at a Tier One, got in a fight with an upper level person, someone who was at a Tier 7 (The highest person should not always automatically be in the highest tier, which would then allow the tiers to stretch as power levels did, but it should be based on separation from the normal power level). But the new kid just busts out an average roleplaying score of 9, and the upper level kid throws out one outstanding RP, one mediocre RP, and misses the deadline for his third and ends up with an average roleplaying score of 6. The outcome would be:

New Guy: 1(.25) + 9(.75) = 7.00
Veteran: 7(.25) + 6(.75) = 6.25

So, while power level made a difference, even an average writing score of +3 allowed the underdog to take the victory, so quality of writing is still incredibly important. The end result is a system that has a strong, strong emphasis on writing ability, but allows for CA to be factored in as well.

[John Doe]

I was thinking of something that utilized CA tiers, like we used to have, but tiers would determine outcomes of fights. So say you had CA tiers 1-10 or whatever. And, my personal opinion here is that CA should account for roughly 25% of a fights outcome (for the sake of arguement), while writing ability should count for like 75%.

You could do something like CATier(.25) + WritingScore(.75). So for instance, say a new guy, who would obviously be at a Tier One, got in a fight with an upper level person, someone who was at a Tier 7 (The highest person should not always automatically be in the highest tier, which would then allow the tiers to stretch as power levels did, but it should be based on separation from the normal power level). But the new kid just busts out an average roleplaying score of 9, and the upper level kid throws out one outstanding RP, one mediocre RP, and misses the deadline for his third and ends up with an average roleplaying score of 6. The outcome would be:

New Guy: 1(.25) + 9(.75) = 7.00
Veteran: 7(.25) + 6(.75) = 6.25

So, while power level made a difference, even an average writing score of +3 allowed the underdog to take the victory, so quality of writing is still incredibly important. The end result is a system that has a strong, strong emphasis on writing ability, but allows for CA to be factored in as well.

It's funny, I was planning on writing a post similar to yours, as a joke. Mainly the usage of percentages when determining the outcome of fights.

"Well, the best way to fix the system is to split it up as so.

58% determined by writing quality
29% determined by powerlevel/CA
12% determined by techniques and abilities
1% determined by bias

As you can PLAINLY see, when given writers a score of x times y divided by w over z multiplied by tits plus infinity, you get a clear cut winner. Foolproof!"

Something about using percentages in regards to powerlevel and writing ability rubs me the wrong way. It seems to work, on paper.

Regardless, I still will roll with whatever system we put in place.

[Victoria]

Sid Kid put it in words that made sense, and I could understand. That is a system that I could work with. Give us numbers for a general sense of who's however strong (CA List), and then a system for how fights are jugded. My only problem is that, most people judge RP's on a case by case basis. I think that the staff themselves would need some sort of guide too, in order to judge the fights as well as each other would. So, judge by mechanics, like grammar, spelling, quantity and then we'd have to avoid any chance of favouritism.

That's the only problem I have with judging on writing quality.

[Geeli Ou]

I mean, we don't have to use specific percentages and stuff because obviously these things need to be addressed on a case to case basis, but my main point was that I'd like to see a system where writing quality is still the primary factor, and a system where writing quality has the potential to trump power discrepancies, while simultaneously retaining a quantifiable purpose for CA in regards to fight outcomes.

Sid Kid is a dope nickname by the way, nice work.

[Jonathan Meer]

Judging the winner of a fight cannot be put into percentages. It's more organic than that.

Why should a newbie be able to defeat Kaden immediately after joining?

I like the fact that there are people who, though I think I could probably match them (or at least get damn close) in terms of writing, would still obliterate me due to the fact that they've invested more into the site than I have.

[Geeli Ou]

Saying that a newbie cannot defeat the top tier people even if he writes like Shakespeare creates a disincentive for new people to join at all. Which, I believe, is one of the reasons and eliminated CA and are having these discussions in the first place; to create an environment friendly to both new blood and older members.

[Super Buu]

Yeah. As others have said, generally higher-CA people are already good writers. And they also probably have friends to back them up in dragonball fights and such. The odds are stacked enough as is without creating a system that literally blocks any chance of winning regardless of writing quality.

[Sigfried Hunin]

Yeah, but PL has to be used to some degree here. It's a freaking DBZ site. Like it's been argued before, but I think the consensus has come to the conclusion that a Relative Returns policy has been the best offering so far that seems to balance these two things.

[Jonathan Meer]

I support the relative returns.

I don't think, straight-up, a newbie should be able to beat someone like Vad or Kaden. I just don't. Vad and Kaden (and Alex and Victoria and etc) have invested a large amount into the site. If someone writes like Shakespeare, holy shit fuck, slap on the back, welcome to the site, but don't expect to be the god of the game from the get-go. Doesn't work like that.

That's probably a contradiction of some things I said earlier in this chat. I'm fine with that. My thoughts evolve as arguments are presented here.

I don't think decisions should be made purely on PL; I don't think PL should be the primary factor in the determination; but I do think PL should be a factor, and it should be a factor of greater consideration than, say, 10% (though I wouldn't be willing to put an exact percentage on it).

[Jarka]

Saying that a newbie cannot defeat the top tier people even if he writes like Shakespeare creates a disincentive for new people to join at all. Which, I believe, is one of the reasons and eliminated CA and are having these discussions in the first place; to create an environment friendly to both new blood and older members.

Really? I'm a newbie(ish) and I found CA to be an exciting challenge. Having a leveling system that goes up to 85 doesn't stop people from making new lvl1 characters in WOW, despite never having a chance of beating somebody at the level cap until they've done the leveling themselves.

If I would have joined at this point in time (i.e. no CA for comparison), I wouldn't have stuck around(ish). I didn't join a competitive writing site to hold hands with everybody.

The way you create a friendly environment for new and old members is to encourage the old members to actually, y'know, communicate with new members. Had I not known Sig, Piper, and Vad IRL, I also wouldn't have stuck around since I felt really excluded by a lot of other people (not a good word... I felt really not included? I don't know if English has the right word for it). Sorry for the little OT bit right there, but I've wanted to mention that at some point.

[Geeli Ou]

Really? I'm a newbie(ish) and I found CA to be an exciting challenge. Having a leveling system that goes up to 85 doesn't stop people from making new lvl1 characters in WOW, despite never having a chance of beating somebody at the level cap until they've done the leveling themselves.

If I would have joined at this point in time (i.e. no CA for comparison), I wouldn't have stuck around(ish). I didn't join a competitive writing site to hold hands with everybody.

The way you create a friendly environment for new and old members is to encourage the old members to actually, y'know, communicate with new members. Had I not known Sig, Piper, and Vad IRL, I also wouldn't have stuck around since I felt really excluded by a lot of other people (not a good word... I felt really not included? I don't know if English has the right word for it). Sorry for the little OT bit right there, but I've wanted to mention that at some point.

When you joined the power discrepancy was not what it had been in the past and by the time you joined CA was, more or less, not being used to determine the outcomes of fights at all. It was a symbol of accomplishment, and I've stated in other threads that I like how it fulfills that role. So, frankly, your situation is not comparable at all to a system where the newbie has no shot in hell with competing with the established veterans.

And comparisons to WoW are pretty useless, in my opinion. People are going to be more willing to play video games, etc. than they are to come on to a website and actually have to sit down and work at something in order to play, like writing a roleplay for instance. The need to create incentives and avoid disincentives is different. The situations aren't even close to being similar.

[Jarka]

When you joined the power discrepancy was not what it had been in the past and by the time you joined CA was, more or less, not being used to determine the outcomes of fights at all. It was a symbol of accomplishment, and I've stated in other threads that I like how it fulfills that role. So, frankly, your situation is not comparable at all to a system where the newbie has no shot in hell with competing with the established veterans.

And comparisons to WoW are pretty useless, in my opinion. People are going to be more willing to play video games, etc. than they are to come on to a website and actually have to sit down and work at something in order to play, like writing a roleplay for instance. The need to create incentives and avoid disincentives is different. The situations aren't even close to being similar.

Hasn't there only been one Chubbs reset? Since there's no way to lose CA, wouldn't it mean that, when I joined, the power discrepancy was at its greatest point since the reset? While I agree with you on the sense of accomplishment given by CA being important, I have always felt that CA should actually have a greater impact than it does (none of that "CA doesn't matter in this" bullshit unless a good reason is given). Since this is a debate about the current system, my experience would actually be considerably more comparable to a discussion about newbie intimidation than your magical universe where the newbs are CA 500 and the established are CA 543,296,463,349.

Besides, you are ignoring the fact that there are almost always people in a similar range to a given character, and people don't always NEED to fight the person in the top slot - you can stay in your range (or just do a lot of personal RP to catch up). That was the point I was making with the WOW comparison. I don't think there's a single person on this site who thinks fights should be pure CA, but it makes sense to have that kind of benchmark. Watch out, I'm about to make another WOW comparison!

You can beat higher level characters in WOW if you team up or if you play better. But, it would be absolutely ridiculous if a level 1 player could, by sheer virtue of button clicking harder, beat a level 85 player. Nobody would ever want to put energy into grinding levels because what would be the point if the number meant nothing? This also ties in with the community example I gave: if you write like Shakespeare, the older community members should A) read your work, B) let you know that they're reading your work, and C) tell you you're doing a good job. If you're really that hot shit at writing, you won't have trouble powerwriting to higher levels with the encouragement from others. Also, think of the flip side - the use of CA gives writers who aren't that great a little padding room in fights. Because, let's face it, not everybody is Shakespeare, but that doesn't stop Stephanie Meyer from wanting to write.

In regards to your second paragraph, you're right. I forgot I wasn't people.

[Victoria]

Jarka makes good points. I stuck to myself, solo RPing, and I got to 10,000 CA in a matter of a few months. New members don't really have much to fear...I think that some people might just feel like they can't compare, or are jealous, or any number of reasons. Right now, or before the CA was removed, being 500 compared to 10,000 made little difference. More saga/event threads were "CA doesn't count" so why fear something that was rarely used? No one fought, no one hunted DB's (untill recently).

All I know is that, yes, I liked the CA list and it made me want to be one of the best. Apply yourself, and yes, you can get to 10,000 as well. It's not hard. It really isn't.

[Vad]

no one hunted DB's (untill recently).

And look what came of that fiasco.