Questions about proposed changes

[Kaden]

So... this whole process recently has been done pretty publicly and I don't really see a reason to change that now. What I'd prefer to do is to be able to come to the members with a mostly-finalized process, but at this point we'd be taking risks with that approach that are simply not worth it.

Here's the post I made in the staff forum about some changes that I think would be beneficial to the RPG as a whole:

The basis for the system outlined below is what I earlier referred to as “Unified Currency.” The idea is simply that players accumulate a single currency that is then spent for any modifications to their character. For the purposes of this discussion, I’ll be referring to the currency as “Prestige.” I’ll start by talking about what I like from the current system and what I think works well.

Stats
I definitely like, and I think most members are pleased with, the way we have stats set up. Being able to quickly look at someone roster and get a feel for where the general strengths and weaknesses of a character are is a good thing. Looking at Kaden’s roster, for example, it’s easy to scan over it and come to the conclusion that he’s a glass cannon. So, I think it would be beneficial to keep the percentage stat thing we’ve got.

There are basically two other stats on the roster: Combat Ability and Power Points. Combat Ability has been something of a touchy subject at times, but it looks like people want to keep it. In the simplest terms, I’d like to split Combat Ability into two separate stats. One of those stats will have IC relevance and the other will have OOC relevance. IC, there would be a “Power Level” stat. Players increase this stat by spending Prestige. If one character has a higher Power Level than another character, they are strong when it comes to RolePlaying. I’ll get into the OOC stat later, but I’ll call it “Character Level.”

Power Points are no longer necessary. Prestige can take their place. Instead of spending PP to activate a Power-Up, a player expends a set amount of Prestige. Same thing, different name.

Accumulating Prestige
To get Prestige, at the most basic level, players would just post. At the time of writing this I haven’t talked to Waff, but I don’t believe it would be difficult to use the XP system to fit these needs. The biggest change I would like to make is to have the rate at which player earn XP-per-post scaled down. That would, hopefully, alleviate some of the concerns of someone post-whoring their way to the top.

To augment the adjusted Prestige-per-post rates, we’d be able to reward players more liberally for their storylines and quests and such. Quests would probably go back to their old form of “here’s a quest, go do” while other storylines could be graded by the community. I would love the community idea to work and I think this is a perfect place for it.

Character Level
As I mentioned above, Character Level would serve as an OOC gauge without affecting anything IC. It would do this in two ways.

Primarily, CL works to modify any Prestige costs. CL increases with every purchase a player makes. If they raise their character’s PL, it goes up. If they buy an item, it goes up. If they purchase a Custom Tech, it goes up. Hopefully you get the idea. This provides a form of diminishing returns that players have to take into account when they decide how they want to “build” their character. Cost increases can either be geometric or exponential, though generally the less math involved the better.

The other OOC aspect is using CL to judge fights instead of PL. I think keeps some of the DBZ “David vs Goliath” feel while still letting characters be built however they want. At the end of this I’ll show a couple of demo rosters.

Power-Ups
These would be awarded for outstanding achievements. That seemed to be what people wanted to see. How these affect people in-game, though, I’m not entirely sure. It would be both a PL and a CL mod. Something like x2 PL and +10 CL. I haven’t really given it too much though, but that’s the first thing that came to my mind. Not too much more to say here.

Static-World Events
These were something that Sigfried suggested and I think they’re pretty cool. The idea is that every 4 or 5 months (or whatever duration we want) we throw up a set of “Events” on each planet that have something to do with the Chubbs universe. Instead of a quest, which is generally just tied to non-descript NPCs, we say something like “Raditzu is locked in an epic battle with Vegeta, but could go for a waffle break. Bring him the greatest waffles the world has ever known.” And for doing that, people get some stuff. That’s the jist.

Community Grading
I think this is fairly self-explanatory. Upon completion of a thread, a player posts and asks for it to be graded. Members of the community would then reply to the thread, asking for it to be graded. Along with any relevant feedback, players would include a Prestige award. After a set amount of time, the suggested Prestige awards are averaged and a player receives that much bonus. Players wouldn’t be able to ask for a reward if they haven’t participated in anyone else’s grading.

Custom Techs
Prices for these would be standardized. We just say “a Custom Tech costs 5 + X Prestige” where X is something based on CL. We could say, for example, the price increases by 2 Prestige for each CL. So we’d get “Custom Tech price = 5 + 2X” The first Custom Tech costs 7, then 9, then 11, and so on. We’d do something similar for Power Level.

Sample Rosters
To put everything together, here are some sample Rosters.

For the purposes of this, assume that players start with a base PL of 500. As you can see, In Character, Bill Yen is more powerful. Scouters would explode at the mere sight of his overwhelming awesomeness. When it came to judging, though, Johnny Tsunami would have the upper-hand because of his higher CL. If they wrote at equal levels, the tie-breaker would go to Tsunami.

So… yeah. Those are the basics.

Bill Yen
Race: Saiyan
Sex: Male
Age: 20

Items: None

Abilities: Ki Spec, Martial Arts Spec

Character Level: 6

Stats:
Power Level: 1000
Strength: 25%
Focus: 25%
Endurance: 25%
Agility: 25%

Techniques: None

Custom Techs: Ultra Beam Smasher

Johnny Tsunami
Race: Human
Sex: Male
Age: 18

Items: None

Abilities: Water Ki, Immaterial

Character Level: 9

Stats:
Power Level: 600
Strength: 10%
Focus: 40%
Endurance: 20%
Agility: 30%

Techniques: Flight, Ki Control, Super Jumping

Custom Techs: Water Form, Jet Stream, Bubble Blast, Downpour, Tidepool

Take some time, look through it, digest it, read it again if you need to. It would be... appreciated if I didn't have to answer one question five or six times.

The biggest question we're looking at, right now, is whether or not the use of CL as a "judgment" stat is a good way to go. Power Level, using this system, is nothing more than a writing mechanic, the same way Custom Techs are, really.

This would mean that someone with significantly more Power Level could lose a fight because their CL is lower, which the example Rosters illustrate.

[Piper Juunanagou]

Are the sample rosters missing?

[Kaden]

Woah. Yeah they are. Sorry.

Should have put this in the opening post, but didn't think about it. Nothing is final at this point. There are still some other things that need to be taken into consideration at this point that we just don't have good answers for.

Chiefly among those are what to do with canons/previous history, what role achievements should play, and if there's any way we can keep any current character gains from this system to anything else.

EDIT: Added the sample rosters. >.>

[Piper Juunanagou]

I apologize if this question is rhetorical: Will abilities and techniques carry over in the same capacity (ie, 'pick 2' for the former and 'buy these with prestige' for that latter) Would techniques have flat 'Prestige' costs or would they operate in some other manner?

Edit: There were no roster yet when I posted this, so I think my question is now even more rhetorical. My apologies.

[Kaden]

I apologize if this question is rhetorical: Will abilities and techniques carry over in the same capacity (ie, 'pick 2' for the former and 'buy these with prestige' for that latter)

Probably, yes. Personally, I still really like the 2 Abilities set-up we have now and I think it's successfully helped characters feel unique and interesting.

Would techniques have flat 'Prestige' costs or would they operate in some other manner?

Mostly flat. In the "Custom Techs" section I talked about that. As CL increases, Custom Tech prices would increase. The increased rate would be the same for everyone, but it would increase.

Edit: There were no roster yet when I posted this, so I think my question is now even more rhetorical. My apologies.

Haha... no worries.

[Sigfried Hunin]

I have a mild concern when it comes to custom techs and the pricing. When it comes right down to it, some custom techs are just stronger than others. How would that be addressed?

Other than that, yes. I approve greatly. This addresses the majority of our problems with relative simplicity.

[Victoria]

I like the whole idea with the PL being spilt, and sort of...understand the custom tech idea. In the end, I think it sounds like things will get harder the higher up you get, which isn't bad.

I'll say it, and I hope no one boo's me for saying it, but I'm wondering about whether or not our current CA + tech/abilities will carry over. I'm not entirely for a reset...but I won't throw a fit if we have one.

I'm a huge fan of the two abilities when you join, it really helped make Vic who she is. I don't think that should change. I'm also alright with power up's being given out to those who deserve it (if that happens, and I lose my power ups, could I just RP that she had her power locked or something? It is a huge plot device for Vic but I understand).

I like the way the staff is heading with all of this, so far it sounds worth giving it a shot.

[Sigfried Hunin]

Yeah I'm pretty sure that most people would have a minor fit if there was a reset.

[Kaden]

I have a mild concern when it comes to custom techs and the pricing. When it comes right down to it, some custom techs are just stronger than others. How would that be addressed?

That question gets into a lot of the issues with the current system. The very short answer to that question, though, is: it would not be.

If people really want me to elaborate on that, I can. I would just... prefer not to. At least right now.

I'll say it, and I hope no one boo's me for saying it, but I'm wondering about whether or not our current CA + tech/abilities will carry over. I'm not entirely for a reset...but I won't throw a fit if we have one.

I have absolutely no doubt that there are people who do not, at all, want a reset. I'm sure there are also people who just don't care.

Finding a way to allow people to keep some of their growth is definitely something on our list. We a couple of ideas, but they're not great. Once we come up with more concrete numbers for any proposed system we'll be better able to come up with a conversion of sorts. That issue, though, is not simply being ignored; we're very cognizant of it.

[Kaden]

Yeah I'm pretty sure that most people would have a minor fit if there was a reset.

Could have just edited this in, but whatev.

Significant changes to core mechanics may simply necessitate a reset. There's might not be a way around it. I understand that the current ambiguity of these posts can be frustrating, and I can certainly appreciate that. As soon as we have something where we can say "this is how it will be" you all will be the first to know.

We absolutely want to make this as "painless" as possible, though, in terms of loss. There are plenty of characters whose strength is part of who they are, and we don't want to ruin characters because of this.

[Sigfried Hunin]

There is no talk of taking our customs and techs are there though? Of all the things that have crossed my mind that might happen this would infuriate me the most significantly.

[Kaden]

There is no talk of taking our customs and techs are there though? Of all the things that have crossed my mind that might happen this would infuriate me the most significantly.

Losing Techniques and Custom Techs may happen.

Here's my first thought about this particular topic. We come up with some kind of appropriate XP -> Prestige conversion. Then we say that if you earned X amount of XP you can start with Y amount of Prestige. In addition, there would likely be some kind of cap on the amount of starting Prestige.

After that, though, there's not much more that can be said without having decided specific numbers for Prestige gain and expenditure and so on.

I really wish I could give a more definitive answer, but I simply cannot, at this juncture.

[Sigfried Hunin]

Blaarrhgharadgh

[Jonathan Meer]

I've no doubt a conversion system could be created, such that the last two years of roleplaying would not be made meaningless.

For the power of the Custom Techs, I suspect it's a non-issue. Suppose you have a Custom Tech that is pretty much overpowered. Against NPCs, who gives a shit? Do what you like (within at least something-resembling-reason, of course). Against PCs, the power of Custom Techs is pretty much flavor in light of CL. You aren't judged on the power of your Custom Techs (just as you aren't judged on your PL). You're judged, instead, on your CL.

I still like this.

[Kaden]

I've no doubt a conversion system could be created, such that the last two years of roleplaying would not be made meaningless.

That is definitely a priority.

For the power of the Custom Techs, I suspect it's a non-issue. Suppose you have a Custom Tech that is pretty much overpowered. Against NPCs, who gives a shit? Do what you like (within at least something-resembling-reason, of course). Against PCs, the power of Custom Techs is pretty much flavor in light of CL. You aren't judged on the power of your Custom Techs (just as you aren't judged on your PL).

Pretty much exactly this. The current system is very much flawed in this regard.

You're judged, instead, on your CL.

And writing quality, of course.

[Super Buu]

Reading through, the only thing that set off warning bells was standardising custom tech costs. I actually think that more powerful techniques shouldn't necessarily cost more, as generally speaking they've always had bigger downsides to use, and thus get used less often. But there are a lot of cases where a custom tech is so useful (IC, I know - but that doesn't make it any less important) and character-changing that I would actually EXPECT to pay a higher cost for it, and it feels like that much more of an accomplishment to finally get the XP to buy it.

Conversely, if I come up with a very minor thing that's probably not going to change the outcome any fights IC - let's use Directed Invulnerability/Immaterial as an example, which lets a character make a specific body part Invulnerable/Immaterial whilst the rest of their body stays normal - I like that it has an appropriately low cost, and I have that choice between getting a few fairly insignificant techs or one that's very significant. If every custom tech costed the same, I'd be trying to make my custom techs all 'worth the price' so to speak, or simply save my custom tech budget for the best ones. The fact that CL will increase prices over time makes this even more of an important factor.

But now that's out of the way, let me say that I love CL. I think it's a very clever way of doing things that recognises the importance of custom techs and items to a character's 'real-world' ability to win a fight (because IC-wise, pure power will help you win a fight, but so will having an arsenal of techniques that could turn the fight around). Not much more to say there, though it will require some care when you come up with the actual cost increments.

As for Power-ups, to avoid excessive math I think it'd be better to stick to either a multiplier or a static boost - personally, I'm more of a multiplier man. And as for using Prestige to activate power-ups, that's something I need to give a little more thought. I mean, I kinda like Power Points. But just using Prestige WOULD work. It keeps the idea that using a Power-up should have some tradeoff, and it's certainly more simple. As long as there's some potential payback if your gamble pays off (ie winning a fight and getting more Prestige back as a result) then it would work. Hmm ...

The profession system wasn't mentioned, and I'm not sure whether you'd plan to keep or scrap that, but let it be known for the record that I still don't really like the profession system and I would simply say "if you want your character to have a job, you're free to roleplay it and be rewarded through the same grading system as everything else". I'm guessing that's probably what you're planning.

On the topic of carrying over XP in some form, it looks like you're probably going to do it, so I won't say much besides to register my opinion of its importance.

Finally, I just want to say it's awesome the way you've handled this whole system change, getting the gist of everyone's opinions and distilling them in a way that address both having a clever, fun game and trying to make the members in general happy. We are very lucky to have someone like you as admin.


Edit: I don't know why it slipped my mind, probably because it wasn't really mentioned, but CL could have exactly the same problems as the current system if it starts at level 1 and works like PL in the traditional sense of how it affects judgement. If that is the case, I'd HIGHLY recommend you consider roughly how much CL you'd expect the average, 2-3-4 posts-a-week writer (I'm pulling these 'averages' off the top of my head, obviously, so maybe give it a bit more thought than I have) to make in a year and then make that the starting CL. If you want this to be a long-term system and not have the same problem that started this overhaul in the first place. Obviously, it's still up for massive debate and until I actually see the system and the kind of diminishing returns I'm pulling numbers out of my ass ... but as it seems to be a reoccuring problem, I think my concern is justified, even with diminishing returns >_>

[Jonathan Meer]

And writing quality, of course.

Yes, right. I meant with regard to the attributes of the character.

[John Doe]

Finally, I just want to say it's awesome the way you've handled this whole system change, getting the gist of everyone's opinions and distilling them in a way that address both having a clever, fun game and trying to make the members in general happy. We are very lucky to have someone like you as admin.

While I agree with that, it still sounds so...

Anyway, I have a minor question. How will Traits be factored into to this new change?

[Sigfried Hunin]

Did Traits ever really do ANYTHING?

[Vad]

Did Traits ever really do ANYTHING?

I based Vad's personality around his trait.