Questions about proposed changes

[Tyr]

I think traits are there to support and steady our character, particularly how well we fare in combat, group combat and combat against overwhelming odds. I don't think anyone went and graded a fight going "well this guy has tenacious as trait so if we get a tie he gets the tipscaler, coz he so tenacious d"

[Jonathan Meer]

I based Vad's personality around his trait.

I think Sigfried was wondering more about judging fights, rewards, etc.

[Vad]

I think Sigfried was wondering more about judging fights, rewards, etc.

I'm sure. I'm never on the same page...

[Josh]

I dislike the idea of having to "Buy" Power Level, and using CL as the new judge of strength. I saw people complaining about the "Flavor" of DB lacking in Chubbs, and this would out right kill it. In what way does a person with a power level of 5,000 struggle against someone with 500 who happens to have a few hundred pointless techniques. It's not as though we are going to allow members to create "Deus Ex Machina"-esque like techniques that turn the tables.

I think PL should go up as people buy Techniques or Items from the shop, period. I don't think members should have to buy PL, because it essentially becomes "Determination, Intelligence, and Luck" of the new system if we start using CL as the gold standard.

Also PL or CL should always be a factor, of course the closer two people are, the less significant of a factor it is, but as the gap gets larger it's necessary for it to become a more important factor until it's the factor. Otherwise we're going to be having this goddamn discussion again in two years despite the fact that I have once again told you so.

There will always be a gap, and there always should be. New players need to have some motivation, as do veteran players. What's important is that we implement ways to keep people from getting too strong, too fast and creating an insurmountable gap between the new and the old.

[Kaden]

Reading through, the only thing that set off warning bells was standardising custom tech costs. I actually think that more powerful techniques shouldn't necessarily cost more, as generally speaking they've always had bigger downsides to use, and thus get used less often. But there are a lot of cases where a custom tech is so useful (IC, I know - but that doesn't make it any less important) and character-changing that I would actually EXPECT to pay a higher cost for it, and it feels like that much more of an accomplishment to finally get the XP to buy it.

Conversely, if I come up with a very minor thing that's probably not going to change the outcome any fights IC - let's use Directed Invulnerability/Immaterial as an example, which lets a character make a specific body part Invulnerable/Immaterial whilst the rest of their body stays normal - I like that it has an appropriately low cost, and I have that choice between getting a few fairly insignificant techs or one that's very significant. If every custom tech costed the same, I'd be trying to make my custom techs all 'worth the price' so to speak, or simply save my custom tech budget for the best ones. The fact that CL will increase prices over time makes this even more of an important factor.

I definitely understand that concern. Kaden himself is a "tech whore" and many of those are fairly insignificant techs that work together to do something more interesting. I haven't thought of anything to address that, though; anything I've thought of doesn't seem worth throwing out standardized costs for, if that makes sense.

I would simply say "if you want your character to have a job, you're free to roleplay it and be rewarded through the same grading system as everything else". I'm guessing that's probably what you're planning.

As of right now, you guessed correctly.

Finally, I just want to say it's awesome the way you've handled this whole system change, getting the gist of everyone's opinions and distilling them in a way that address both having a clever, fun game and trying to make the members in general happy. We are very lucky to have someone like you as admin.

Thank you. I appreciate that a great deal.

Edit: I don't know why it slipped my mind, probably because it wasn't really mentioned, but CL could have exactly the same problems as the current system if it starts at level 1 and works like PL in the traditional sense of how it affects judgement. If that is the case, I'd HIGHLY recommend you consider roughly how much CL you'd expect the average, 2-3-4 posts-a-week writer (I'm pulling these 'averages' off the top of my head, obviously, so maybe give it a bit more thought than I have) to make in a year and then make that the starting CL. If you want this to be a long-term system and not have the same problem that started this overhaul in the first place. Obviously, it's still up for massive debate and until I actually see the system and the kind of diminishing returns I'm pulling numbers out of my ass ... but as it seems to be a reoccuring problem, I think my concern is justified, even with diminishing returns >_>

The power gap could absolutely happen again, you're completely correct. As you know, there's a balancing act to be done with diminished returns. We don't want someone to just suddenly be x20 a starting member, but we don't want to eliminate any sense of accomplishment.

Did Traits ever really do ANYTHING?

Not really, no. It's served as more of an at-a-glance Roster field for figuring out someone else's character.

The wasn't really a plan to make any changes to it. I don't really see a problem with keeping it, but if people think it's a waste of space it's just as easy to dump.

[Kaden]

The biggest question we're looking at, right now, is whether or not the use of CL as a "judgment" stat is a good way to go. Power Level, using this system, is nothing more than a writing mechanic, the same way Custom Techs are, really.

Just wanted to reiterate the biggest question we're looking for feedback on, right now.

[Victoria]

I echo what Josh said. If CL is used to judge, well, it would basically be buying power wouldn't it? And I also agree that there will always be a gap, and that fighting a person with high power should be hard, and there should be some gap.

I'm horrible at giving feed back, but what Josh said, I basically agree with.

It's still a good system though, I mean, I'll try to support either way we go. I don't really do fights as it is, even at 10,000 I fear being a loser lol.

[Jonathan Meer]

Guldo: uber weakling. significant threat because of his techs

case closed @gainst Josh

While 500 PL folks with huge CL against 5000 PL folks with low CL would be an odd match-up, that's pretty damn exceptional. Just about any system you posit can have the odd 'wtf look at this' exception.

Currently, the exception is in terms of effort; effort expressed as quantity is rewarded, effort expressed as quality is ignored.

[Juno]

Does CL go up if you buy Power Level? Somebody might've answered that, but I missed it if they did.

[Victoria]

If I got this right...you get Prestige when you RP and post and stuff. That Prestige can be spent to level up your power level. Is there any other point to prestige other than to spend it on Power level? Otherwise it could just directly affect the power level stat rather than "spending it".

Oooh wait, unless... You use Prestige to buy things (basically, it's XP), and when you buy PL and techs and whatever else, your CL goes up. CL is just a number, we don't use it to buy things or anything, it just reflects the amount of effort we've put into buying things to enchance our character.

Right? And the higher your CL, the more things will cost?

That doesn't sound so bad. It will definetly make things harder, in a good way. Argh I don't really know what I think other than it sounds a little more concrete than XP = Power.

[Kaden]

Does CL go up if you buy Power Level? Somebody might've answered that, but I missed it if they did.

Yes it does.

[Kaden]

If I got this right...you get Prestige when you RP and post and stuff. That Prestige can be spent to level up your power level. Is there any other point to prestige other than to spend it on Power level? Otherwise it could just directly affect the power level stat rather than "spending it".

Oooh wait, unless... You use Prestige to buy things (basically, it's XP), and when you buy PL and techs and whatever else, your CL goes up. CL is just a number, we don't use it to buy things or anything, it just reflects the amount of effort we've put into buying things to enchance our character.

Right? And the higher your CL, the more things will cost?

That doesn't sound so bad. It will definetly make things harder, in a good way. Argh I don't really know what I think other than it sounds a little more concrete than XP = Power.

Prestige would be the only thing used to buy anything. PL, Techs, Items, etc.

[Victoria]

Thanks, sometimes I need to ramble and talk it out before I understand ^^.

Count me in for CL being used as judgement. I mean, in the end, we'll either be back where we started in two years, or we'll be even better than ever. Or...well, we'll do nothing and that's never good. Even if it is hard, it makes one want to strive even more to excell.

At least with CL being a judgement factor, we have a solid idea on how to deal with fights. As it is, and as it has been in the past, we never had a way to judge really aside from reading the posts, using our gut, and checking on the PL's. CL encompasses everything a character has, and makes it into a number. I think that, using that AND using our own judgement on quality of writing, will be a good way to go about judging fights.

Hope that helps.

[Juno]

If I got this right...you get Prestige when you RP and post and stuff. That Prestige can be spent to level up your power level. Is there any other point to prestige other than to spend it on Power level? Otherwise it could just directly affect the power level stat rather than "spending it".

Oooh wait, unless... You use Prestige to buy things (basically, it's XP), and when you buy PL and techs and whatever else, your CL goes up. CL is just a number, we don't use it to buy things or anything, it just reflects the amount of effort we've put into buying things to enchance our character.

Right? And the higher your CL, the more things will cost?

That doesn't sound so bad. It will definetly make things harder, in a good way. Argh I don't really know what I think other than it sounds a little more concrete than XP = Power.

Yes it does.

If all of this is true, then count me in almost completely. I'm going to reiterate that I think good writing should be rewarded in some form or fashion, but I do not think it should usurp realism. If a person is thousands of times stronger than someone else, I don't think the meek little newcomer should win, because Josh is exactly right, that takes away the DBZ aspect. But I don't foresee that happening.

The only thing that I'm majorly on the fence about is standardizing custom tech costs. I really like the custom tech system we have now. This kind of goes along with my next question.

I am led to understand, and you may correct me if I'm wrong, that there is a specific "cap" on how much Prestige we must spend to get to the next CL, correct? Or does it automatically increase as we spend? If it is the latter, and we want to, "raise the price" for things as you get higher in CL, then I would suggest raising said "cap." That way, a person who wanted to buy tons of weak techniques to try and spam the system and get up to the next CL still might not get there as quick as someone who bought one strong custom tech and poured the rest into PL.

EDIT: Keep Traits. I like them. 'Efficient' has done wonders to help me pinpoint the combat style of Juno when selecting his custom techs.

EDIT 2: I kind of misunderstood CL, so I edited out my stuff but left it in in case you decided to use a similar method. I understand it now, though, and I still love it.

[John Doe]

I didn't add this my first post, but I might as well say it now. I like having to buy PL. It simply adds to the creative choice for characters. A few good examples were already told (Guldo and Kaden).

I found it funny that I ask about Traits and it goes on for like, half a page. Minor my ass.

Edit: Fuck me I can't read

[Jonathan Meer]

That's more a testament to the nature of Chubbs discussions, rather than the importance of Traits.

[Sigfried Hunin]

I don;t think that CL is suppsoe to be the "new CA". Power Level, as far as I understand it, will operate like, you know, POWER LEVEL in every sense that it worked in the show. CL is just a measure of your overall activity and basically a writer score/overall work and effort put into the character.

This system is preferable because it allows you to DECIDE where your prestige goes and how much "raw power" you character has as opposed to gear, custom techs etc.

For example, I have always imagined Vad as a beefy, power slinging muh fugger without a whole lot of fluff and shit all around him. Jus' good ol metal control and RAW MIGHT. In contrast, Sigfried has a power level of like... maybe like, a thousand? TOPS?! But he has all kinds of crazy ass techs and customs.

So, will he win a fight with Vad? Prolly fucking not cause Vad would make like, a metal salvo round of concentrated badass and blow him the fuck up. Sigfried, however, is capable of doing some CRAZY SHIT with his powers cause that's what he CHOSE to put his bits and bobs into.

Victoria always notes herself as "RPing a lower PL". That's cause shes not a BITCH. She's putting self-enforced controls on her PL so that it's a more level playing field. I think if given the option most people here would do that by NOT BUYING A SHITTON OF PL. It's a system of checks and balances.

CL doesn't change the fight world nearly as much as PL in my mind, but if it's a close call of near-ish PLs and good writing, the fight would go to the more senior writer (eg: higher CL).

Saying tht CL would be the new "gold standard" misses the point IMO.

[Jonathan Meer]

@Sig:

The other OOC aspect is using CL to judge fights instead of PL. I think keeps some of the DBZ “David vs Goliath” feel while still letting characters be built however they want.

PL, in the tentative system described above, would not be considered in the resolution of fights. CL would. That said, insofar as the purchase of PL increases CL, PL does have an indirect impact on the resolution of a fight.

[Sigfried Hunin]

Well, I misunderstood and counter offer what I said.

EDIT: Ok, yeah, and the more I think about it, I STILL think that PL should be used to determine fights. If a senior member just hasn't put as much PL into their character as other people, they'll just lose the fight to a person with a higher PL, REGARDLESS of how long they've been here.

If we use CL to determine fight's it's the exact same problem as we have no with the senior member almost automatically winning based on, well, their SENIORITY. As a senior member you would obviously have the option to decide if you WANTED more PL but it wouldn't necessitate it. I think giving people a choice on the matter makes everyone happy and implements a sort of self-induced check and balance system. Cause nobody really wants to be a douche bag.

[Jonathan Meer]

Seniority =/= productivity over time

Beyond that correction, I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're saying.