Questions about proposed changes

[Jonathan Meer]

I don't expect anyone to be underendowed. Judging from previous C&C threads, I wholeheartedly expect everyone to consistently score eight to ten out of ten... Even if they deserve a five or a six.

Because, let's face it, very few of us C&C someone that we like and want to be mean. Even when you tell your friends to be brutally honest, they're still your friends, and all the logic in the world ("well if they really are your friends they should feel comfortable giving honest feedback") doesn't always change that.

Is the answer, then, to try and get people not in your clique to review you? Maybe, but I can still easily see THAT dissolving into a situation of "you scratch my back, I scratch yours"; an endless circle-jerk that is hard to outright stop, because most of the people here are at least reasonably competent, and it's very hard to sling down the Staff Hammer on a 6/10 post voted to 8/10 (probably common) than it would be a 2/10 voted to the same. The latter would be easy, the former would probably piss a lot of people off.

This is just one reason why I'm completely against an X/10 system for determining Prestige (or any algorithm for that matter).

Tough skin will have to come with the territory. There should be no beating someone down (constructive being the key, implicit, word here), but there should be no babying either. This'll probably take a bit of time for some, but it'd work out.

And the bias wouldn't be that bad? We have people here who have posted shittily in sagas and been given a pass over people that were clearly writing better for the explicitly stated reason that the saga runner was 'counting on the winner to write better in the future' because of the writing that they had done in previous rounds (which should have had no bearing). Admittedly, I think that was Burter, but the bigger concern (for me) was that no one seemed bothered by that, because they knew the winner, and how he 'normally' posted, and didn't want to see his feelings hurt. If people are fine with results of competition sagas being manipulated to that degree by bias, I can only imagine what will pass for C&C.

As you said, that was Burter. Personally, I would never run a saga that way, and would have been appalled if I was participating in a saga and watched that happen.

With more people, and the anonymity of the internet, there'll be someone who says 'Hey, actually, this really isn't all that great.' And once the point is made and shown, other people might be convinced. Or they might not.

If they vote it up regardless, there it is. Again, Staff can step in if need be (though Staff involvement should be kept as low as is reasonable, to ensure that this is, indeed, a democratic involvement).

I'm not saying what you're describing is a non-issue. There certainly will be some ickiness to overcome. But the fact that you're pissed about the saga, and would probably be pissed enough to raise a ruckus if you watched this happen in the C&C, is exactly the sort of fervor that is needed to ensure this DOESN'T happen. So be pissed about what you perceive to be improper. That's the spirit.

Then there's the issue of the spectrum. Most of us will/should be on that higher end of the rewards spectrum, because the application process weeds out those who would actually write terribly. We'd all be concentrated near the top (both from our writing and inflation from friendly judges). Is the answer, then, to form 'competent' as the 'bottom' rank of rewards? Do we really want to give people 'shit' rewards for writing fine? But is the alternative of nearly EVERYONE getting good stuff better?

I'm not entirely sure what the last half of this paragraph means.

This is a second of many reasons why I'm against an algorithm. Rewards should be given out according to the absolute value of the production of an individual; not relative to the production of other people. Rewards don't happen on a spectrum.

This might seem like a non-point; of course our judgment of rewards will be based on an abstract, intuitive system by which we consider past judgments and the quality of the posts, and overlay that upon the current thread under consideration. But that it's abstract is, I think, significant. We should not be actively trying to rank people by this Community Grading system; that's a rather pointless endeavor. What is important is ensuring that people are rewarded for what they produce.

If everyone ends up writing to essentially the same high standard, then fabulous; I would say that, though Community Grading might be somewhat plateau-ish at that point, it would be a roaring success. Community Grading provides incentive for pouring quality into one's posts.

I am fucking tired of people snidely referencing the current system and insinuating that it is in some way a failure because it only accounts for a # of characters in a post.

Open the Goddamn CA list, look at the top fucking entries, and tell me who's there.

People who produce are there.

It's a happy coincidence that, for the most part, the most productive members are also some of the more gifted as far as writing ability goes.

But it is, nevertheless, a coincidence. I, for one, have been turned off to the system for some time. I'm simply not as verbose as others. I have a naturally concise writing style. I'll spend a good hour or so on 300 words, sharpening it down so that not a single syllable is wasted. I take the economy of poetry, in the pieces I'm most pleased with, as my principle.

But when I care about stat-gaining, I don't bother with that shit. I go fucking stream of consciousness, let out the characters, drive drive drive, repeat, produce run-on sentences, introduce actions that are unnecessary but beef up the word count. I don't enjoy the product, but it's about ten times more effective in terms of gaining stats.

My writing style slips through the cracks, as far as CA goes. I don't much like that. And, I highly doubt I'm alone.

[Jonathan Meer]

I still fail to see any response to how this will work out. CL doesn't take into account the fact that Power Level is what the stat system is based on, it's a pleasant thought that we can have people who have a lot of techniques and a low power levels, but it lacks any consistency IC and OOC.

We have very strict rules on the techniques that are allowed on the RPG, so as not to overpower characters unfairly. But the internal logic of the RPG is broken if we allow someone with a lower power level to win against someone who's got a higher power level simply because they have the same CL.

Simply knowing a variety of different and advanced techniques doesn't matter if you lack the sufficient power to make them useful. An example of this is Tenshinhan using the Shin Kikohou on 2nd Form Cell, despite it being incredibly powerful and broken(It used his Soul not Ki) it didn't even harm Cell it just annoyed him until Tenshinhan was almost dead.

What use is Kienzan if you're too slow to even notice that your opponent has his fist in your chest.

We simply don't allow broken techniques on the RPG, especially ones that would allow this difference in power to not matter. We're not gonna let people use "Magic" like Babidi who could take over anyones mind regardless as long as they were evil- because it's god modding.

Even if we did allow that, it still wouldn't help. Because then the high PL characters would simply purchase one broken technique and rape the crap out of people with their high power level and broken technique.

What point is there to PL in this new system anyway, if we're going to ignore the power discrepancy between characters in favor of techniques and CL then it should be dropped as well as stats. Then you'd only have CL, Techniques, and Items.

No offense dawg, but this forum ain't anime, and never has been.

Check this out:

|||CL is an OOC stat, which is the product of a person's production and quality over time, and is a determining factor in the resolution of fights, as well as some other ventures.|||

This is the function of CL in the system Kaden sketched out above. In light of this, your criticism is, essentially (once the whole 'hey, akira toriyama never fucking did it this way' is swept to the side) 'CL doesn't make sense IC.'

But hey, that's cool. It doesn't have to. It's an OOC stat. Just like it never needed to make IC-sense that, every week, Krillin became about 2% more Determined, whether or not he'd bothered to do jackshit that week. Just like it doesn't need to make IC-sense now that Jon can just scrape his dick along a cobblestone street for 50000 words and end up extrem-o powerful.

In light of this, if your criticism would then morph into 'Well, CL should be IC,' I'd be interested in hearing why. And why you've been (apparently, largely) silent over the last six years that I've been here, where previous systems have made even less sense IC.

Or, easier, I would just respond 'CL should not be IC,' and let things play out.

[Juno]

I have a query. I'm not opposed to a new stat system in the least, I think it will be a good, fresh start, and all that jazz, and I don't really want to throw away all of this work we've done.

But at what point is it the stat system's fault and at what point is it the problem of people losing inspiration?

This is why I decided, earlier tonight, that my favorite part of this new proposal is static events. I think, and I'm sure those who read my writing would agree, that I do my best writing in a saga. I really grew as a writer during my extended time in the second Dante's Abyss I participated in and during FoF3, and I think I churned out some of my best work ever during Kill Town. To add to that, I'm having the time of my life in The Invasion.

I think that my worst work comes when I don't have some sort of concrete inspiration, something to bounce off of, a world to live in, breathe in, and be involved in. My first topic as Juno, "I Don't Want To Set The World On Fire," was, to me, an astonishing success. It's the only personal storyline I've ever been able to finish, and the idea piggybacked off of a small subplot I'd included in my Zangya storyline.

Branching off of that, when I was Zangya, I was, for a time, one of the most active role-players on the site. I remember a day when I posted eight separate, six to seven hundred word posts. They were kind of crappy, but I posted them, and that was because I had a concrete platform to bounce off of (in this case, training for Telepathy on Namek).

People have talked about how they don't want to lose the DBZ aspect -- others have a position that completely abhors the idea of a DBZRPG at all, but mostly, it's the former. The major complaint is that aside from the special powers, the planets, and the Dragon Balls, the world doesn't really feel like DBZ anymore, it doesn't really feel like we're a bunch of warriors set to fight mystical foes, and save worlds. A lot of people have complained that it's become too much like X-Men.

Static events could save that. Something could be done, these static events could be used to redefine the world in a more DBZ way -- not, "oh, hey, a swarm of aliens is invading" (although, as a sci fi fan, I don't mind branching off from DBZ occasionally) but something more DBZ focused. I'm not creative enough to come up with a relevant example, but something like that.

I know that activity bursts when people have a solid platform to bounce off of. Creative freedom is obviously preferred and needed, but no one will argue with having a world that shapes itself and changes around them (sometimes even because of them). I think that if The Invasion continues to work, this idea will have even more credibility, and if we apply it specifically to DBZ, if this ever-changing world is ever-changed by things that feel like DBZ, then I think we win two battles: giving people an outlet for inspiration and giving people a return to form.

So yeah. That's my opinion. I'm pretty much beating a horse that has already been beaten and agreed on, but I'm dreading that it's going to be overlooked in all of this mess about new stat systems and grading systems. And I think that it's one of the few items proposed that has an awesome chance of succeeding in beefing up inspiration and, subsequently, activity.

[Sigfried Hunin]

You knowwwww, now that I think of it, heres a pretty cool side effect of CL: You can RP having like, team mates and saiba men and all kinds of shit and your CL is still comprehensive. You don't really have to worry about what the PL of each of your clones or your shape shifted form or whatever fluff you feel like using ,your CL will account for it. Neato.

[Jonathan Meer]

I have a query. I'm not opposed to a new stat system in the least, I think it will be a good, fresh start, and all that jazz, and I don't really want to throw away all of this work we've done.

...

So yeah. That's my opinion. I'm pretty much beating a horse that has already been beaten and agreed on, but I'm dreading that it's going to be overlooked in all of this mess about new stat systems and grading systems. And I think that it's one of the few items proposed that has an awesome chance of succeeding in beefing up inspiration and, subsequently, activity.

I dig these vibes.

[Josh]

No offense dawg, but this forum ain't anime, and never has been.

No offense dawg, but that's irrelevant. I used an example from DBZ because this is a DBZ RPG, and need a simple example.

Check this out:

This is the function of CL in the system Kaden sketched out above. In light of this, your criticism is, essentially (once the whole 'hey, akira toriyama never fucking did it this way' is swept to the side) 'CL doesn't make sense IC.'

But hey, that's cool. It doesn't have to. It's an OOC stat. Just like it never needed to make IC-sense that, every week, Krillin became about 2% more Determined, whether or not he'd bothered to do jackshit that week. Just like it doesn't need to make IC-sense now that Jon can just scrape his dick along a cobblestone street for 50000 words and end up extrem-o powerful.

That's cool, it doesn't have to? Your reasoning is that because Kaden said "It's an OOC Stat", it doesn't have to make sense despite the fact that it affects IC fight resolution, and breaks the internal logic of the RPG.

Kuririn becoming more determined didn't change the fact that he was a human being and significantly weaker then his Saiyajin friend counter parts, despite being just as or more determined as them.

Except that Jon scraping his dick along the ground can be explained as him simply growing stronger over time, through the experience of him dragging his dick along the ground.

Being able to reasonably fight and win against someone who's so fast and strong that you can't even perceive their movement is hilarious to say the least. A anorexic girl could have mastered Karate, BJJ, and Kung Fu but it's not going to matter against a heavy weight amateur MMA fighter.

In light of this, if your criticism would then morph into 'Well, CL should be IC,' I'd be interested in hearing why. And why you've been (apparently, largely) silent over the last six years that I've been here, where previous systems have made even less sense IC.

CL is IC because it affects the outcome of IC fights, to say it's an "OOC" stat is irrelevant. As for why I've been silent for 6 years is because you're not staff, most of the discussions I have regarding mechanics is with the staff itself and not members in general.

Don't confuse the fact that I don't grade quests, and approve techniques with a lack of interest in the RPG. As Kaden can attest, we've argued numerous times over mechanics regarding the RPG.

One of them being diminishing returns, something I tried to push during the turn over.

Edit: The fact that you have access to the Development Forum and still try and make it sound like I've been silent shows that you're an ass.

[Jarka]

Give people REWARDS for playing as groups, just like the old quests did. More prestige, more xp, more whatever you decide to use. Maybe leave the rewards open for things like the massive ship that Civil Unrest got for Red Stallions.

An appropriately sized reward for group effort. Large enough to make it oh so delicious, not enough to be completely game breaking.

Considering the challenges (and community payoffs) presented by posting within a group, this is definitely a valid suggestion.

Perhaps after providing overall feedback, people could submit their final scores (for the purpose of prestige accumulation) of someone's work in private to the staff member over-seeing the grading of the thread? That way, y'know, no one has to get their feelings hurt. (unless in your feedback post you call them a douche or something >_> )

This could really cut down on a lot of the fears of bias that people have brought up. My only hesitation would be how would the graders know which staff member to send to? It would require a staffer to call dibs on a thread when it was first posted. Or, it would be awesome if there could be a way to keep all replies to person A's grading thread hidden (except staff and each grader's own reply).

[Piper Juunanagou]

How would people out there feel about having the Spar/Fight boards back? I kind of feel (just personally, of course) like we had a lot more of both whenever they had their own board. Then they can serve better as one-off things rather than having to be incorporated into a storyline. Plus we're a DBZ RPG, so those things being showcased in their own forum always seemed to fit in with the theme. Then again, this could all be just me.

[Victoria]

I like that idea. I miss the spar/fight board. I often want to just do a spar/fight but I can't unless I take a break in my story...or I'm stuck in a saga. Is it hard to say that said spar took place a week ago? We had so many spars back in the day we they had their own board.

So I very much like the idea of bringing them back.

[Jonathan Meer]

No offense dawg, but that's irrelevant. I used an example from DBZ because this is a DBZ RPG, and need a simple example.

This is a DBZ RPG in terms of subject matter. This is not, and never has been, a DBZ RPG in terms of the 'game system.'

That's cool, it doesn't have to? Your reasoning is that because Kaden said "It's an OOC Stat", it doesn't have to make sense despite the fact that it affects IC fight resolution, and breaks the internal logic of the RPG.

Kuririn becoming more determined didn't change the fact that he was a human being and significantly weaker then his Saiyajin friend counter parts, despite being just as or more determined as them.

Except that Jon scraping his dick along the ground can be explained as him simply growing stronger over time, through the experience of him dragging his dick along the ground.

Being able to reasonably fight and win against someone who's so fast and strong that you can't even perceive their movement is hilarious to say the least. A anorexic girl could have mastered Karate, BJJ, and Kung Fu but it's not going to matter against a heavy weight amateur MMA fighter.

It does not break the internal logic of the RPG, because the RPG has been built around the possibility that the weaker can defeat the stronger. It's not hard to make it work in IC, in a world where people can shoot laser beams out of their ass. This delineation between OOC and IC has worked for many years.

Your two replies to my examples seem weak enough to count as concessions.

On your final point in this quote block, I, in essence, agree. When you paint it out to it's far-flung extremes, a sheer newbie shouldn't stand a chance in hell against an established and gifted veteran. But, of course, that's by-and-far the exception. 99.9% of the resolutions this system will have to determine will not be in regard to individuals 20x stronger than other individuals (by virtue of the diminishing returns). When those things come up, we'll deal with them.

CL is IC because it affects the outcome of IC fights, to say it's an "OOC" stat is irrelevant. As for why I've been silent for 6 years is because you're not staff, most of the discussions I have regarding mechanics is with the staff itself and not members in general.

Don't confuse the fact that I don't grade quests, and approve techniques with a lack of interest in the RPG. As Kaden can attest, we've argued numerous times over mechanics regarding the RPG.

One of them being diminishing returns, something I tried to push during the turn over.

Edit: The fact that you have access to the Development Forum and still try and make it sound like I've been silent shows that you're an ass.

Fair enough on all this. I didn't remember you saying much of anything in the Dev Forum, but a search shows I was wrong.

[Sigfried Hunin]

I never had a spar/fight thread, but I fucking want one.

I can never imagine why Sigfied and Jarka would have a fight to the death in the storyline, but goddamn would that be SIIIIICK

[Celena]

I'm in favour of a return of the spar/fight board. We had some epic spars way back then. *cough* Bulma vs Yamu *cough*

[Vad]

I think we should create a list of world facts as well. The main one I'd like to convey is metal type. People should be aware of the types of metal used by Metal Binding. Like how Kachin is heavy and dense as fuck.

Simple facts that one would like to know OOCly.

[Juno]

And who's actually in charge of Earth / the cities. Is it still the King of the World?

And Central City has had so many mayors in the past two years it's not even funny.

[Dehan]

I'm not worried about the mechanics of the game anymore. I can see a lot of passionate folks here so yall take the lead.

I just want to know if canons going to be implemented again, will there be a Planet Conquering/Protecting system in place and that's about it. Then I'll be a happy camper.

[Rebekah]

I'm not worried about the mechanics of the game anymore. I can see a lot of passionate folks here so yall take the lead.

I just want to know if canons going to be implemented again, will there be a Planet Conquering/Protecting system in place and that's about it. Then I'll be a happy camper.

Canon's are still up in the air as far as I know. When we have something finite we'll be sure to let you know. The planet conquering system and protecting system is also not clear at the moment.

I hate being vague, but that's how it is.

This is Vad, btw.

[Jonathan Meer]

Everything I've heard is that canons will not be making a return.

[Rebekah]

Everything I've heard is that canons will not be making a return.

Probably, but I just wanted to make sure he (and everyone) understood that no formal decision has been made. As far as I know.

[Jarka]

I think we should create a list of world facts as well. The main one I'd like to convey is metal type. People should be aware of the types of metal used by Metal Binding. Like how Kachin is heavy and dense as fuck.

Simple facts that one would like to know OOCly.

And who's actually in charge of Earth / the cities. Is it still the King of the World?

And Central City has had so many mayors in the past two years it's not even funny.

YES YES YES. As the most prominent Noobasaurus Rex, this would have helped soooo much when I was starting (which is why I keep piping in with P.S. world building in pretty much every comment I make). Even having a grasp on the site and an idea with where I want Jarka's story to go, having more concrete facts about the world would give more inspiration and help connect everybody's stories together.

[Rebekah]

YES YES YES. As the most prominent Noobasaurus Rex, this would have helped soooo much when I was starting (which is why I keep piping in with P.S. world building in pretty much every comment I make). Even having a grasp on the site and an idea with where I want Jarka's story to go, having more concrete facts about the world would give more inspiration and help connect everybody's stories together.

I wholeheartedly agree and I will bring it forward in the staff forum as something to think about.