The RIOT Act

[Jarka]

An Udyr building toward Warmog's or Trin Force gets precedence over a support Soraka, in general. As I see it.

When I explicitly say, "Let me just get this wave so I can get a NLR and actually have my heals do something," no, you do not.

"Building towards" rarely takes precedence over "actually getting enough gold for the item."

Also, don't forget that they nerfed the effectiveness of pure support champs in general. Remember that thing I've been bitching about for the past month or so? Nobody seems to want to adjust from the "support just sits there unless it's a teamfight" meta, which was the entire reason they made that change.

[Jarka]

That was a general 'you' not a jarka 'you'.

Either way, I'd argue that Ori or Nid are better taken in roles other than support because they are just wayyyy better that way (because they need said farm). Sort of the point of the ranged AD/support setup is that you let the ranged AD farm so they can carry, and you are just there to enable that. Nid and Ori, while I guess they can fufill that role, are sub-optimal to other champ choices in addition to being way better in a solo mid or solo top spot. Same goes for cho'gath for top/jungle, and yes I know you enjoy support cho down bottom.

My point is, if someone wants to play the support/ad carry bot setup, then said someone should go into it with a champ that works with that. That means champs other than ones you need to compete for last hits with, because now you're just defying the very setup you intended to play. If you don't, then well anything goes I guess.

I do agree about the post-laning phase stuff.

What happens in a game where there is not a support champ? Does bot not compete for last hits in that setup? Why is that any different than laning with somebody with a decent heal/shield (with enough AP) and takes CV while still outputting tons of damage?

I actually quite enjoy laning solo and jungling, but our team comp rarely allows for it (since Weemus or Mal usually call dibs on solo top, Tryg/Weemus/Anz/Dariden for jungle, and we have 394 people that play AP casters for mid).

Anyway, my point is that even in an AD carry plus support lane, "support" does not mean "sits there and does nothing," especially not after the changes that Riot made. I have always taken it to mean "has to focus on damage output, controlling the enemy team, AND keeping their team in a better situation than the enemy at all times." Sometimes that means competing for last hits, just like if it were an AD carry and a bruiser or any other champ.

There are really only three support champs (Sona, Soraka, Taric) that can scrape by without any farm, and even then, it is really fucking frustrating when your heals aren't enough to save your teammate thanks to a nerfed base stat and an outdated laning strategy.

[Anzekay]

What happens in a game where there is not a support champ? Does bot not compete for last hits in that setup? Why is that any different than laning with somebody with a decent heal/shield (with enough AP) and takes CV while still outputting tons of damage?

I actually quite enjoy laning solo and jungling, but our team comp rarely allows for it (since Weemus or Mal usually call dibs on solo top, Tryg/Weemus/Anz/Dariden for jungle, and we have 394 people that play AP casters for mid).

Anyway, my point is that even in an AD carry plus support lane, "support" does not mean "sits there and does nothing," especially not after the changes that Riot made. I have always taken it to mean "has to focus on damage output, controlling the enemy team, AND keeping their team in a better situation than the enemy at all times." Sometimes that means competing for last hits, just like if it were an AD carry and a bruiser or any other champ.

There are really only three support champs (Sona, Soraka, Taric) that can scrape by without any farm, and even then, it is really fucking frustrating when your heals aren't enough to save your teammate thanks to a nerfed base stat and an outdated laning strategy.

In a duo lane without a support you have a lot more burst and possibly more CC as well as fight resilience (not sustain mind you) which means you can play a lot more agressively. If you play your cards right, you make up for the fact that you have two people needing a similar level of farm by either gettings kills+assists and dragon control, or you force the other team's duo lane to play safer and get less farm.

And yeah I do know all about how our games tend to go. Just yell at us and say you want to play mid or solo top sometime and surely anyone being reasonable will let you!

While the changes Riot made have indeed changed the way support work, it hasn't exactly changed the way that the role should function in a certain circumstance. If you're playing the eurolane style bottom lane, then it's leave most of the last hits to your AD carry, get gp5, buy wards be pro and let your team see everything. I guess the more NA spinoff of that is to drop the crazy ward use and work on some aura or AP items. The thing is though, leaving most of the farm to your AD carry doesn't mean you don't get any farm at all, you just avoid taking last hits at the expense of your AD carry. You don't shoot the stuff they are shooting, you get other minions. You can also ask your jungler to be more agressive down bot (if you have a strong top this is really easy to do) which results in even better farming for both you and your AD carry as well as hopefully some assists for you (or kills if you're sona lawl).

I just find the concept of 'competing for last hits' to be really... I dunno, dumb? Maybe it's just me griping on the phrase itself, but we're meant to be competing with the other team, not each other. There are ways to have two people farm in a lane without stepping on each others toes constantly, and if done right you can, between the two of you, last hit every minion in a wave. Not every AD carry can manage that on their own at times.

[Anzekay]

I should probably note that, since this IS the Riot Act thread, a lot of what I was talking about eairler was just pet hates and personal gripes from games, most of them with pugs. Things like playing an AD ranged bot with a support who seemed to make it their goal to screw up every single last hit for me, or with a support who just autoattacks, messes up my last hitting and pushes the lane. Things like that.

A lot of all of this is really just playstyle differences, I guess. I like very specifically built team comps that go into a game with a goal in mind, and people who have roles that they really focus on and integrat with the rest of the team. That means that when we talk about lane comps and things like that I instantly go into 'what is optimal here' mode and just think about that.

[Josh]

Support champs make up for lack of farm by grabbing assists in team fights, and ganks. Any support is viable without farm as the enemy team will likely have a support without farm as well so they are equally squishy, or their team has two champs that have half the farm as your Carry and get totally obliterated. Leona, Shen, Maokai, Rammus, Alistar, Zilean, Gangplank, Janna, Galio can all support bot very good without any farm at all, simply by buying Heart of Gold.

The recent changes didn't nerf Support champs as much as try and force a more aggressive playstyle by beefing up their dps in exchange for lowering their healing and sustain.

[Ashe]

With the recent support changes...

...supports need farm too, Weemus.

But no, seriously, supports do need farm, just like the rest of the team. Unless you want somebody that doesn't really contribute any damage and doesn't do any real supporting.

Yeah. Thanks for remembering that and not raging at me in that Shen game. I was thinking "Oh man, Jarka's gonna rip me apart for taking these last hits" though after I got some initial gear to go get assists with, you completely outscaled me on cs (and I backed off after throwing dagger a lot to let you heal and take cs).

[Sigfried Hunin]

Supports need farm now. I trust high level players who say this over anyone here (except Tryg, who is a pretty high level player)

[Anzekay]

Everyone needs farm, it's just a question of how much, and how much in comparison to everyone else.

[Ashe]

One thing I think we forget sometimes... Yes, a carry (or similar) needs the most farm, however... one super farmed person is not always going to carry 4 completely starved teammates. Keep that in mind. There've been plenty of games where I've seen a carry (or tanky dps) run from lane to lane and fully expect whoever was in said lane to just relinquish it entirely. Its a team based game, and while the carry should get the most, that still has limits. Being a carry with 350+ dps is amazing, but if your entire team is 80 and less just to get you there, that's a bad thing.

[Tyr]

Supports need farm now. I trust high level players who say this over anyone here (except Tryg, who is a pretty high level player)

What high level player says this, though?

~~

I believe the roles are flawed by design in League of Legends and to some degree flawed because it's played by people who came from games with more defined roles. Strategies are being used from other ARTS/MOBAs that are much more ineffective because the carry-phenomenon, while a lesser factor in LoL, takes a hell of a lot longer to reach because of the small amounts of gold that is present to be farmed and the rare occasions where I play support in LoL, I look at the guy I babysat after 30 minutes and go "... that's it?". I simply don't feel it's worth it giving the carry all the creeps, because 9/10 times, he's not going to be able to carry the team solo anyway.

I honestly don't know how the bot lane should be played anymore. I find that competing for creep kills is stupid because often that means a tenth of the creep kills will go lost unless people co-ordinate by voice chat who gets what, because often just by stress factor, people will hit a millisecond too soon from getting the last hit and a minion will get it instead.

I wish Riot Games would add more active items that could change games after the champion selection screen, so a successful support could turn a game easier. If I as a support could get an item to disable or damage the other team via (useful) actives, I would feel much more useful and not just enable my team to escape with a sliver of health because me healing useless teammates is not going to make them less useless. Problem with that is the way active items are balanced is by being expensive and components giving good stats for the user, but since LoL is lacking the whole agi/str/int thing, I don't know how to effectively swing that in order for Udyr not just gaining a cost-effective CC, changing his entire champion role.

meh.

[Anzekay]

What is with pugs and not taking flash on the most retarded champs to not have flash.

cripes

[Mal Nova]

Fuck Flash

[Mal Nova]

I actually quite enjoy laning solo and jungling, but our team comp rarely allows for it (since Weemus or Mal usually call dibs on solo top,

<_< We saw what happened when I jungled...

We know I'd fail at Mid...>_>

As for Bot... welll... errr give me Xin and give me Alex =D lol AND DONT LET A CAIT BE THERE!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kaden]

What high level player says this, though?

Gotta agree with Tyr. High level play is still the super exaggerated "support gets no farm" meta.

If you coordinate it at champ select, you can go for a support who can roam and a carry that can 1v2 relatively safely, but that's about as far as it gets pushed right now.

[Mal Nova]

ROaming Alistar lol

[Anzekay]

<_< We saw what happened when I jungled...

We know I'd fail at Mid...>_>

As for Bot... welll... errr give me Xin and give me Alex =D lol AND DONT LET A CAIT BE THERE!!!!!!!!!!!

Man up, tell everyone else to get over it, and just jungle and mid and whatnot, you're only going to get good at it with experience!

[Piper Juunanagou]

Gotta agree with Tyr. High level play is still the super exaggerated "support gets no farm" meta.

If you coordinate it at champ select, you can go for a support who can roam and a carry that can 1v2 relatively safely, but that's about as far as it gets pushed right now.

I had a pug do Roaming Sona in a game.

It was the most awful thing I have ever seen. =(

[Mal Nova]

Man up, tell everyone else to get over it, and just jungle and mid and whatnot, you're only going to get good at it with experience!

No ones telling me not to... I just... well... I fail enough as it is lol

[Trygelan]

No ones telling me not to... I just... well... I fail enough as it is lol

The thing about this is, you'll improve more (or faster) if you get outside of your comfort zone. Play champs you don't play much, lane somewhere you aren't used to laning, things like that. Given that, when you are doing such you are more likely to look as if you've failed, but as long as you are trying to focus on the basics (last hitting, map awareness, all that), then the more you play these other roles or champions, the more comfortable you'll be as them and the better you'll be as a player.

This is why I've been letting more and more people jungle over the last few weeks. I'm trying to work on my AD and support roles from time to time as those are what I feel are my weakest area. Thus that really fail Miss Fortune play by me last night.

But no matter what role you are playing or what lane, always, always, always focus on the basics until they are second nature. Aim for 4 or 5 last hits per minion wave. Get in the habit of glancing at the mini map every 5 or so seconds, doing a quick count of enemy champs and where they are.

...... and I just went completely off topic, so back on topic... so much rage at my fail MF play last night. I absolutely hate when I fail like that.

[Josh]

I look at the guy I babysat after 30 minutes and go "... that's it?". I simply don't feel it's worth it giving the carry all the creeps, because 9/10 times, he's not going to be able to carry the team solo anyway.

That's less a design flaw and more of a flaw in the fact that your carry sucks. A decent carry can carry an entire team if they are at least decent at what they are doing and not feeding the enemy team.

It's hard to change the support meta without completely redesigning their kits. As the reason the 0 cs meta works is because support kits don't need farm to work and be powerful.