The Like/Hate Thread

[Super Buu]

Hate: When, rather than actually pay me for the internet which is in my name and which I'm paying on everyone's behalf, the new housemate decides to just get the password (I'm assuming from the other housemate, who already gave me a shit-ton of hassle over paying for it). I had vaguely wondered since it's been a couple weeks, but I barely see them and I've had other priorities. I wonder if, when I change the password, I will suddenly get her approach me about using the internet. I'm tempted to just say fuck it and tell them to set it up themselves rather than have to hound them just to get what's only a few measley fucking quid anyway.

Not that I'm mad or anything.

[King B]

Dude, fuck her. It's a matter of principle, it doesn't matter whether or not there's a lot of money involved. If she wants to use something that's yours regularly, she should pay for it. Otherwise she should get her own. I've never run into anything like this, because all of my roommates and housemates have been tremendously great about things like this, but to me, this is an absolute hell no. I would not tolerate it.

[Kayne]

I think the counter-argument is equally valid. If it's a game, with stats and progression, why is it fair for someone who posts once a month to be at the same level as someone who posts three times a week?

It's a fair point, I suppose. I would like to move away from this sort of competition and useless numbers altogether if I could, but, it might work with a numerical value indicating power if we can find a way to actually make it have some tangible purpose within the game. I never really liked the idea of just having it for show, especially when a majority of the updates that were being done by staff members dealt with adjusting these numbers that really didn't mean a whole lot besides inflating over time. The percentage stats that we have now are fine, however, although I think it would better work being represented as a bar than as a number (although the number would still be there and relevant to how big the bar is; it's part aesthetics, but I can understand the importance of it being there to show, for example, that a character is pretty fast, or that they're rather nimble, for instance. Same thing, different packaging.)

My main beef, I suppose, is with the Combat ability level. If it is kept (and this is all dependent on if I can get it to work with the updated forum software, which I would for sure keep regardless because it works with my vision of the next iteration of this place should be, simple and attractive), I think it could use some revision, or reinterpreted some other way, such as using it with the 'level' system I was talking about in a previous post. So much CA = level. If I can get that to work, then I wouldn't at all mind keeping it. It would serve a purpose (to serve as a requirement to unlock certain techniques and such, and also open up more difficult quests and rewards). In this sense, I do not think it penalizes too much either the person who posts a few times a month, or a few times a week. It will slow the person who posts less down a little bit from attaining techniques, but it also gives them something to reach for other than some bloating number. XP is sort of serving that purpose, being used as currency to purchase techniques and stuff, but I feel that it could certainly be improved upon.

You can not create a completely balanced system with something like this, that combines elements of talent with simple stats. Your choices then become how to reward what and what should be kept in/left out.

I do not feel that what we have now is completely balanced, at least, not as it is currently being interpreted. Without periodic evaluation, which is something that appears has not really been happening for quite a while, it is bound to surface some flaws.

The entire system can be tweaked over time as problems or better ideas come up. If people would rather we kept what we have, that's fine, but I would really like to go over it again and just improve upon what is there already, and possibly put a new face on some of it.

As far as what to reward and such, I think in most cases, perhaps a static or staggered prize should be offered. Depending on the effort put in, the reward can range from a range of of 3-10XP (lowest, highest), some zeni/credits and/or an item of some sort (perhaps, if it is alright with Greg, we can expand on an augment system...but as with the rest of what I am trying to get at, make it not klunky so that newbies and vets alike are able to understand it with minimal problem.)

I've always felt like the stat-based, competitive part of the RPG made things more engaging and interesting to the writers. Even with the stats, the RPG has never been about PvP. Yeah, there have been times where someone could've walked around and just one-shot every other member, but that's never happened. Ever.

It very well could have, though; but you are right, no one has successfully done it, although I wouldn't doubt there have been some who were tempted. The great thing about the majority of the players both past and present is that we know the limits and exercise common sense and fairness with one another, for the most part.

If we do keep a stat system, I would like to see it have serve some other purpose other than just being a burden for updaters and not really having any actual meaning within the writing, except on the rare occasion such as sagas or competitions and spars.

I feel that competition shouldn't be about who has the highest combat ability. In WoW, as with other MMO's, some people just do not really care about being max level, or having the really tweaked out gear. Some people thing the exploration and collection of items and other non-combatitive things are what makes the game enjoyable for them. Going around and training with all of the NPCs on a planet could be an achievement for them.

No system is perfect, and I am not claiming my ideas are guaranteed to succeed, but doing SOMETHING to spice things up and improve what we have is better than sitting back doing nothing. If things keep up the way they are, there won't even be a Chubbs for us to come on to every day, like we have been for years.

Personally, I think the people who accumulated the most "power" in the game are the people that were willing to prioritize playing it over doing something else. People talk about only wanting to make quality posts and that's why they don't write as much, but that falls flat to me. Look at the people who have been at the top. They've always been people who write quality posts and want to put more time into this than something else. Maybe other people don't have as much time, maybe other people want to do other things, there are a lot of reasons for it to seem unfair. It is unfair. It's also unfair to diminish those efforts by saying their posts weren't that great and they only cared about word count.

Fair enough, but I think it would be foolish to assume that everybody who has been 'at the top' of the rankings have always busted out quality posts. Some days we're feeling it, some days we're not. However, I think there have been a few people over the years who just bust out mediocre (at best) posts just to get higher in the ranks. And therein lies the problem: ranks. I think it is misleading and disheartening to those who do value writing and posting 'quality' posts end up being lower ranked, while some who just churn them out at a blazing pace just to get higher end up being assumed by others (probably mostly newbies) that they are somehow better than others. This is just my theory, not to be taken as necessarily fact. If I had to make a choice about whether to keep this particular statistic, then it would be gone pretty much immediately, at least in its current form. Reimagining it as a contributor to what comprises a 'level' to unlocking new quests and the like is more what I think it should represent, rather than a measure of how 'superior' or 'strong' they are.

With one exception, I genuinely don't think there's been anyone here who has made posts just so they've put down more words than someone else.

I refuse to name them, again, out of common respect and not to stir drama if they even still come around, but I do believe that those few people are gone from here. It doesn't matter now anyways. The fact of the matter is, I think it has happened in the past, and I think going forward, could continue to be abused if it is not addressed.

This got kind of tangential. Sorry for that.

No worries. I like discussing this as we are now. I do not feel you are being defensive, and I hope I am not coming off as that way, either. The ideas I have are not set in stone, and I have no real intentions of coming in here and gutting everything completely and putting in just what I want. Input from everyone, staff or player/lurker included, is important to getting ideas coming together for what could possibly work to keep this place from completely keeling over. That is the most important thing for me. As much as I say otherwise at times, this place has been my home for the past six or seven years now, and I really cannot imagine being without it.

My point was eventually going to be that, when looking at the intended path of development for players in a game, consistency is very important. Decide what you want to reward, stick to that, and keep an eye on the player's progress. Here, for example, the XP rate-of-gain was adjusted after a couple months to fit more appropriately with how we wanted characters to progress.

And that was a good idea. I really hope we can keep that particular feature going, but as I've stated throughout this post, I think what we have can use some further refinement, and perhaps find a new usage or new interface for what we have already, so that we can work towards the goal of making the entire system have meaningful attributes rather than just be something for shiggles.

[Kaden]

The problem with numbers in a game like this is that they either have to determine everything a person can or can't write, or they have to be abstracted enough that they serve for interpretation. I believe you're familiar with the "Ballpark" system Greg has used in the past, and that's a good example of something we choose to avoid here. Something similar was considered, but if we said "you have to have 50% Strength or higher, you lift up to 500 lbs." people start feeling like their creativity is being inhibited.

Fair enough, but I think it would be foolish to assume that everybody who has been 'at the top' of the rankings have always busted out quality posts. Some days we're feeling it, some days we're not.

It's equally foolish to assume that people used "I only want to make quality posts" as an excuse because they wanted to go play whatever new video game had come out instead of write. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but the fact of the matter is that, regardless of what you think of the quality, all of the people at the top got there by making the choice to put their writing before anything else they could have been doing. I won't lie, as one of those people, it's frustrating for me to hear arguments like this. I could have played a game, or gone outside, or done something else, but I made the choice to write and I don't think the rewards for doing so should be diminished because someone else didn't and then said it was unfair.

Ok... done with that. I'm over it.

I do not feel that what we have now is completely balanced, at least, not as it is currently being interpreted.

Just for point of clarification, I wasn't saying that what we have here is balanced. I was actually saying that it, specifically, is not. Also saying it never will be.

As far as what to reward and such, I think in most cases, perhaps a static or staggered prize should be offered. Depending on the effort put in, the reward can range from a range of of 3-10XP

Always consider that you have to have people actually doing manual updates. If a player is RPing to get the XP for a new move and, to them, it's important to what they do next with their character, they have to wait for someone to grade/reward/whatever their work, then they have to wait for someone to add/grade/whatever their new move is, and then... you see what I'm getting at.

Also, I strongly advise against thinking you should ever grade on "effort." One of the reasons that we decided to use word count for XP is that we avoid having to reward someone for being a better writer than someone else. Or, conversely, we punish someone for not being as good a writer as someone else. It's incredibly demoralizing to see someone who made the exact same length post as you get rewarded more for what they did. You also can't determine how much effort someone put into something. Even if you don't think the quality is very high, it could taken them twice as long to write it as something you consider very good.

I feel that competition shouldn't be about who has the highest combat ability.

Then what should it be about? Here's the problem with a site like this. If Joe is simply a better writer than Bob, by an agreeably sizable margin, then Bob has no reason to ever try to compete against Joe. He will always lose.

You can call it "levels" or "CA" or "Ki" or just "awesome points" but if you have people working to reach a goal, then whoever reaches it first or more often is winning. It doesn't have to be through a number, either, it can be abstracted through number of abilities or amount of zeni or types of items, but the competitive aspect of it will always be there. The only solutions, really, are to remove stats in-and-of themselves, or have them set so that, once created, they never change.

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Ok, so, this next part I typed, then deleted, then retyped. I know it's probably going to be irritating or... I dunno. It'll sound bad. All I can say is that I'm trying to be straight-forward, not insulting. So... yeah...

It sounds like what you and Greg want (and it could be a ton of people, you two are just the only ones who've said anything) is a system where you can put it down for a while, then come back every now and again and still be on-par with the people who never stopped. The system that is here right now was specifically designed to avoid that. I think that's horribly unfair to the people who continue playing. That said, it probably could have been mitigated more than it was, but live 'n' learn.

While I appreciate the desire to maintain an level playing field, I can't caution you enough against diminishing people's efforts.

-------

I also am curious, why don't you make a new RPG? It sounds like there's enough that you want to change (both mechanically and canonically) that you'd be best served just starting with a blank slate. One of the things that we wanted to do was turn Chubbs into a hub of (apparently failed) RPGs to keep the community, but appeal to people in ways that the current stuff didn't. If you have ideas you want to pursue, that's the course of action I'm inclined to encourage.

EDIT:

No worries. I like discussing this as we are now. I do not feel you are being defensive, and I hope I am not coming off as that way, either.

You're definitely not coming off as defensive. I actually was being defensive earlier in this post, but just for the bit about people at the top making quality posts. Hopefully nothing else came off as defensive/was offensive.

[Kayne]

It's equally foolish to assume that people used "I only want to make quality posts" as an excuse because they wanted to go play whatever new video game had come out instead of write.

There's all kinds of excuses, but, again, just theorizing from what I have seen over the years, both directly and insinuated, this RPG once valued quality writing. What I mean by 'quality' is something that somebody put some actual thought into, minimal typos, not something like this:

Gokon was flying to school on the flying nimbus passed down to him he was scared ms.mccaig was going to kill him for being late and then he heard the bell ring at that point gokon powered up and rushed to class Ms.mccaig had been teaching multiplication when gokon rushed in he was wearing the regular green pants and white shirt with suspenders he rushed to the his seat but was grabbed by ms.mccaig tail first and was given an assignment to write i will not be late x1000 since he has been late many times

It doesn't have to be mind blowing, or of epic proportions, but something that the author has obviously put some effort into making into a finished piece. And you're absolutely right. Everybody here could have (and has) gone off to do other things, but instead, invested copious amounts of time into this place. Simply put, I think that smaller rewards should be given for minimal effort such as the example I put, and larger rewards for those who have obviously put some effort into creating something more refined.

Just for point of clarification, I wasn't saying that what we have here is balanced. I was actually saying that it, specifically, is not. Also saying it never will be.

I know, I just wanted to conversate about that.

Always consider that you have to have people actually doing manual updates. If a player is RPing to get the XP for a new move and, to them, it's important to what they do next with their character, they have to wait for someone to grade/reward/whatever their work, then they have to wait for someone to add/grade/whatever their new move is, and then... you see what I'm getting at.

Yeah, I see. But it did work at one point, and as far as I know, I do not know if there is any other solution that works with what we have. So, manual updates are in until we can find something else.

Also, I strongly advise against thinking you should ever grade on "effort." One of the reasons that we decided to use word count for XP is that we avoid having to reward someone for being a better writer than someone else. Or, conversely, we punish someone for not being as good a writer as someone else. It's incredibly demoralizing to see someone who made the exact same length post as you get rewarded more for what they did. You also can't determine how much effort someone put into something. Even if you don't think the quality is very high, it could taken them twice as long to write it as something you consider very good.

The above roleplay sample is a good example of why I think effort should be a consideration when rewarding someone for their writing. My above definition of 'quality' is what I think should be a primary factor in determining what kind of reward should be given. It isn't about whether I think someone who is obviously trying, but not quite as good as others should be given less reward, it's about those who are capable of spending a few extra minutes reading over their stuff and proofreading, doing things like separating paragraphs, for instance, capitalizing pronouns, putting voiced sections in quotes, that sort of thing. If someone is developing and refining themselves as they write and putting in their best, but not quite up to what most of our veterans are used to, then they can expect the higher reward. If someone just doesn't even try to check their posts and the issues are glaring, then they can expect the lower one. I think it should be more motivating to spend that extra few minutes to get what they can ironed out and get that higher reward. The concept of staggered rewards is not intended to reward people less for not producing stuff like, say, Ander's or Sage's caliber of writing, but for putting effort into their writing and show some effort in improving themselves.

Developing strong writing skills is something that we've done for years, whether we've realized it or not, we've all become better writers, both of fiction and in general, and I think part of that has to do with what we do here. We are essentially practicing, and improving upon our style, in an enjoyable, creative way.

Then what should it be about? Here's the problem with a site like this. If Joe is simply a better writer than Bob, by an agreeably sizable margin, then Bob has no reason to ever try to compete against Joe. He will always lose.

For the enjoyment of writing? To write with others? If you take away the stats, what really makes us much different than any other fanfiction site? I think we are essentially that, a fanfiction site that just so happens to build off an evolving primary framework and have a common theme. Isn't there some sort of competition when it comes to being a preferred writer over someone else? For instance, I have a pool of writers that I read pretty much every time they put something up, with one that I follow very closely, along with a few others that I also greatly enjoy, because I love their style, and the stories they weave. I've probably read nearly everybody whose played on this site's stuff at one point or another, but do I go out of my way to read what they post every time like I do Greg (when he writes) or Ander's (when he was around)? No, not really. Some more often than others, and some only just a few posts. To me, it makes me feel good that someone enjoys what I write, and if I can get someone to enjoy my stuff, and read it more often, then that's competition enough for me. It's a competition for fans. Is that not motivating?

I think that the stats competition is just too limiting. It might have a place somewhere in this game, but I do not think it should be the primary determinate of how 'powerful' someone is.

You can call it "levels" or "CA" or "Ki" or just "awesome points" but if you have people working to reach a goal, then whoever reaches it first or more often is winning. It doesn't have to be through a number, either, it can be abstracted through number of abilities or amount of zeni or types of items, but the competitive aspect of it will always be there. The only solutions, really, are to remove stats in-and-of themselves, or have them set so that, once created, they never change.

Isn't that essentially what is going on now? We have static stats with the strength, focus, agility, and endurance stuff. The only way those change is with the inner strength ability. Those stats, in their current (and probably only) form, will not change. They'll be reinterpreted into another representation, but that's pretty much just from a graphical representation standpoint.

So, for this particular example, its the difference between this:



and this:



A good portion of what I have in mind is aesthetics and trying to make it more visually appealing. The bottom picture is sort of thrown together, but it gives you an idea of what I mean.

I was voicing before that I would like to just not have stats at all, but if you (and everyone else) would prefer to just keep everything as is, then fine. But I think the least that could be done is a little tweaking and some aesthetic work, like what I just posted for the stats. I am confident we can find a mod out there somewhere that, if it doesn't do something like this, can be also tweaked to do so. If I have to, i just alter it myself in photoshop, or anyone who has the capabilities to do so can do it themselves if they want.

I am not wanting to come into this and just wipe everything that's been put in so far (that would be kind of insulting, I think) and put into place something entirely new, but I do not at all think it would be a bad idea to just fix what we have and perhaps find new ways to represent the things we already have. I know this response kind of veered off a little, sorry about that.

Ok, so, this next part I typed, then deleted, then retyped. I know it's probably going to be irritating or... I dunno. It'll sound bad. All I can say is that I'm trying to be straight-forward, not insulting. So... yeah...

It sounds like what you and Greg want (and it could be a ton of people, you two are just the only ones who've said anything) is a system where you can put it down for a while, then come back every now and again and still be on-par with the people who never stopped. The system that is here right now was specifically designed to avoid that. I think that's horribly unfair to the people who continue playing. That said, it probably could have been mitigated more than it was, but live 'n' learn.

While I appreciate the desire to maintain an level playing field, I can't caution you enough against diminishing people's efforts.

I didn't have much intention of coming in and ripping out the system that's already here, just tweaking it. Adding shit, like the quests, perhaps do more with the gear thing that is severely underused. One thing that I haven't talked about is a better acquisition of zeni/credits, which I hope the quests would remedy (that would sort of resemble what we had before...way before, remember all that with the TP system and stuff? that was awesome). It was a fluttering thought, but it sounds like you would be adamantly against taking out the system we have now. That's perfectly fine. You guys spent a lot of time on it, and it'd be insulting if I just came in and took it out and replaced it with something else entirely. It would also be stupid and probably alienate what little people we have left.

Just for the record, whatever changes are proposed, I do not have any intentions of making anyone start over. The multiple character thing can stay, I rather dig that, and was very much for it even when we didn't offer that particular feature. It gives variety when you're just not feeling that particular character, and you can return to it without penalty. Also, the storylines we have going on now, even the ones that haven't been played for a while, and those that have already wrapped up, are just fine how they are. What has been created over the years is great for building on the worlds we've already made and shouldn't be too terribly affected with the changes I would like to make (IE the NPCs, quests, things like that)

I also am curious, why don't you make a new RPG? It sounds like there's enough that you want to change (both mechanically and canonically) that you'd be best served just starting with a blank slate. One of the things that we wanted to do was turn Chubbs into a hub of (apparently failed) RPGs to keep the community, but appeal to people in ways that the current stuff didn't. If you have ideas you want to pursue, that's the course of action I'm inclined to encourage.

The hub thing was probably not a good idea, in retrospect. At least, not the way it was executed. Spinning them off onto their own separate subdomains and boards would have been a better move, I think. I am not sure how they would have fared as far as garnering players, that's a different issue altogether. Having staff that is dedicated to those particular games who focused on the players, however few that were there, would have created less confusion and better management. That's just my thoughts, don't take it as bible truth or anything like that.

I've thought about just doing my own RPG. I've even made a board for it, but I start, and it's like...I don't know. It's not this place. I've got seven years here. I've made some awesome shit happen, at least from a story perspective, and I'm proud of that. Even though I didn't come up with the idea for Chubbs when it first started, I like to think I contributed in some way to the IC world, however minuscule, and made something there. I've slowed down because I've lost grasp of my muse, but that doesn't mean it isn't there somewhere. The embers burn, but the flame can still be made, if that analogy makes sense. I guess the reason why I would rather stay here and try to do something with Chubbs is because this place has done a lot for me, both online and off, relationship-wise and just for me as a person. I feel at home here, and regardless of how everybody feels about me, and how I sometimes feel about them, it's hard to fathom not coming online and seeing you guys every now and then. It sucks that people are disappearing, but it gives me some hope that every now and again, one of the vets comes back to check in.

For me, one of the most disappointing disappearances would be Nick's, as I really enjoyed his company and his advice, and he was a HELL of a writer and all around awesome friend...but as I understand, he's got real life issues to deal with, and that's perfectly fine. The only thing I can really do is just hope he's doing alright, and maybe come back one of these days to say hi.

Just like Americans are proud of their country, and many would fight for it, I am proud of this place, and seeing it pretty much on the brink of death has inspired a bit of patriotism (if that word works) to fight for it. If I've got to whore every damned message board, web ring, social websites, and whatever to get the link out there and bring people in, so be it, but in my current state, I just do not think I could be as effective. That's not meaning to be offensive, but you guys don't have to say it outright for me not to pick up on the vibe that you're just not feeling the role anymore. It's perfectly understandable. It's a lot of pressure to be under, especially when the activity is booming, and you're bombarded with problems and questions, and then have real life issues going on, or other interests to dip into. Me? Other than needing to find a job, going through school which takes up a few hours a day for me, and some random errands, I feel pretty confident that I can do whatever it takes to at least give putting this place back on track a shot. I have the extra time, even when I get a job, to invest time back into this place.

Basically, what it boils down to is that my attempts to start my own boards have fallen flat because I do not feel for them as I feel for this place. There's a lot to go off of already, and I enjoy the company. This is a familiar place. It's one of the things that I have been passionate about since I realized I fit in...in some weird way. I guess I should also point out that a lot of the boards that have spun off of this one, unique or inspired, have failed, while this one somehow manages to crawl onward. If I can even inspire a few people to get active again, then I would feel I have succeeded.

EDIT:

You're definitely not coming off as defensive. I actually was being defensive earlier in this post, but just for the bit about people at the top making quality posts. Hopefully nothing else came off as defensive/was offensive.

It's all good, seriously. If there's one thing that I've learned being with my husband, it's learning how to discuss things without pussing out at the slightest hint of aggression. I do not feel you were that way, but it is a little intimidating on some level to be discussing something like this to an administrator. I am really trying to just talk to Mario, the guy who hangs around here, and not Kaden, the administrator who holds the very power of ban or no ban over me. It's refreshing to talk this out, and I appreciate it.
.

Also...sorry for the length of my posts. I feel I have to address these things as thorough as possible so that I do not give the wrong ideas.

[Super Buu]

It sounds like what you and Greg want (and it could be a ton of people, you two are just the only ones who've said anything) is a system where you can put it down for a while, then come back every now and again and still be on-par with the people who never stopped.

That sounds horrible. To clarify my stance, what I think would be a good idea is if you can put it down for a while, come back, and not be 30x weaker than the people who never stopped.

Like I've said, I think people who dedicate themselves more should have more. That's like, fundamental. I would never suggest taking that away. But you've got to realise, that it is NOT all-or-nothing. I'm finding it difficult to get this across. To give an example, you could go even more extreme than we are currently - say, making a single post gives you 10,000 CA. That rewards people even more for posting. But that's not necessarily a good thing. See, every positive feature has negative repercussions - you can say the same with negative features, like a death penalty. In this case, the increased reward for posting more in turn punishes you more for not posting. It's very exclusive.

So, given that concept, you have to find a middle-ground that makes most people happy. If we made it so that the CA gained from posting was much smaller than it currently is, it wouldn't remove the reward for players who are dedicated. You're still going to be much stronger than someone who doesn't dedicate as much time to writing on Chubbs. But it won't be so massive - I'm talking 5, 10, 20 times more powerful - that it excludes people.

Obviously, if you do not want 'casual' writers on the site, and would rather it be only the most dedicated writers, then things are perfect as they are. But I think those people might have more fun if there were more people to write with.

[Kaden]

...

Fair enough. I understand the give-and-take. To me, your stance had been coming off as more extremist than it seems you intended.

[Belle Hibiki]

Thing is, our reward for posting is already pretty low for the time invested.

But I guess this is all a secondary issue.

I had a larger post typed up last night, but I slept without saving my document and I bluescreened overnight, so I guess I'll attempt a short version:

In my mind, we've just been dancing around the truth for a long time now. Whenever we have debates about this, it's always about incentivizing this, or promoting that; "If only we change the CA system, people will play", "if only we can do this, we can get more sagas." But that's completely wrong. The forum isn't a game, as much as we try to dress it up as one; there was an element of that, once upon a time, but that vanished along with the automated bot.

No, what this is supposed to be about is writing with other people, of exchanging ideas, of that excitement you get when you're not fully in control of the story in your hands, where your partner(s) take you down turns in a tale that you might never have seen coming. That's why roleplaying is awesome to me, and why most of us started to do it in the first place. Writing shouldn't be something that the system has to coerce you into, it should be a labor of love, freely given. We focus so much on the 'system' and 'competition' that I think we miss that fact.

We constrain ourselves and our crazy ideas for the sake of 'balance' in what is essentially a formless construct. We deny ourselves the opportunity to build a Titanic on the waves, because we're too busy trying to build a sand castle there. Is CA an issue? Sure, but it's not the main issue.

As to the 'why', I honestly can't say. The answer is going to vary from person to person.

One thing that is a huge barrier to continuing, though, is the attitude.

It's no secret that this forum has hostility between members, and while that's not exactly unusual on forums, the long-standing nature of this place seems to have metastasized some of that dislike into a bitterness that hangs over the place like a palpable stench. I'm definitely not innocent in this. If this push for change goes forward, whatever we end up changing to, whether it's completely CA-less, a rank system, or just an adjustment, this community needs to do some trust exercises or something.

[Kayne]

And this is why I love you, Kibbs. That made complete sense, and I think you are very much correct.

[Sage]

I very much have some ideas and want to get involved but you'll have to forgive me; I have a commercial law exam tomorrow worth 67% of my grade so hopefully you understand my silence/absence.

Interesting ideas so far, though.

[King B]

In my mind, we've just been dancing around the truth for a long time now. Whenever we have debates about this, it's always about incentivizing this, or promoting that; "If only we change the CA system, people will play", "if only we can do this, we can get more sagas." But that's completely wrong. The forum isn't a game, as much as we try to dress it up as one; there was an element of that, once upon a time, but that vanished along with the automated bot.

No, what this is supposed to be about is writing with other people, of exchanging ideas, of that excitement you get when you're not fully in control of the story in your hands, where your partner(s) take you down turns in a tale that you might never have seen coming. That's why roleplaying is awesome to me, and why most of us started to do it in the first place. Writing shouldn't be something that the system has to coerce you into, it should be a labor of love, freely given. We focus so much on the 'system' and 'competition' that I think we miss that fact.

We constrain ourselves and our crazy ideas for the sake of 'balance' in what is essentially a formless construct. We deny ourselves the opportunity to build a Titanic on the waves, because we're too busy trying to build a sand castle there. Is CA an issue? Sure, but it's not the main issue.

I completely fucking agree.


When I first joined Chubbs, the first thing that hit me hard was the level of writing and the writers that this site inhabited. I remember there once was a time where I literally read every person's post just so I can whole-heartedly learn how to become a better writer. To that respect, I feel like I have grown a lot as a writer because of this place and it definitely hurts when I witness, firsthand, this place collecting dust and lose its former glory. I looked up to a lot of people in this place, and being able to roleplay and interact with them was a great bliss of mine. Definitely somewhat life changing...

Because of this place, I started really working on my craft. Because of this place, writing became one of the greatest hobby of mine, one that I'm actually proud of and quite honestly the hobby that I find most enjoyable. I really wouldn't like to see this place shut down, yet I'm completely flustered as to what I could contribute to this place during a time of overhaul. All I know is... writing is a dying art.

Realistically, I don't think this place will live on as an RPG. Like Belle said, we're all trying too hard to hold on to the construct of the RPG to really see that this place has actually already evolved way above it. I guess its this unheralded evolution that has brought upon the difficulties for everyone to continue writing, at least for me it is. I've stopped treating this place as a game a long time ago. This has since evolved into a place where I can share my stories, read other engaging tales, receive criticism and quite honestly just hone my craft. I think treating this place as game will spell ultimate doom and I'll explain that.

First of all, kids nowadays, they don't give a fuck about reading or writing. As much as we can all deny this, these kids that don't give a fuck are the future of.. well, everything. Without new blood pouring in, and with the old people here just collecting dust and having whims now and again, there's just no more new material. As a writer(somewhat), the thing that inspires me to write is always something new, or something interesting and we don't get that because it's been really stale. All the vets here, we've all done our fair share of writing, and let's be honest, we're all past the age where we can just sit down and write for hours on end. This is our key demographic gone.

Secondly, we alienate some of the more serious writers out there because we hold on to the idea that this is still a game. People that are around our writing age and ability but have outgrown "the game" will never come on to a "DBZ RPG" to try to work on their craft or interact with some of the writers here. I've been on many boards before, and I must say this place is the most special. Aside from most other boards not surviving nearly long enough to be considered a community, this is a community of GREAT writers. We hide some of greatest writers that I've ever read from. If we could somehow get over this hump, I feel like we'll be able to attract some new blood here as well, just not young guns.

Also, the most important thing of all. When we do attract these people, through advertisement or word of mouth, I feel like we also fuck it up for them because we ARE a community and we come with the faults of a community. This means that newcomers, unless they are extremely socially aware, are often alienated and find it hard to fit in because we as Chubbsians have a very weird sort of chemistry with each other. And because we don't come off as the most welcoming people, or perhaps because people feel like they're not on par creatively or linguistically, they don't stick around often enough. For my experiences at least, it took me awhile until I felt like I was truly part of "the crowd." But hey, I'm a more persistent one.

These are just my two cents. Honestly, I don't know why I posted this, but I felt like there were somethings that I wanted to address on a macro level that maybe some people overlook when talking about re-vamping Chubbs.

Feel free to disagree, g's.

[Ashe]

I absolutely agree that there is too much underlying hostility in the community. Its the number one reason why I feel very little urge to visit this site, or to post when I'm here. I took a few months away from it because of it. I'm tired of seeing new members join this site and vanishing without a trace due to the treatment they get, whether it be from staff or members (because I've had a major problem with both). I don't really know of a work around to it unless we somehow had an equal amount of new members appear at the same time. I don't really know how to interact here anymore, as a staffer or as a member of the community. I can't imagine how a new person responds.

[Alexander Trafford]

For me, personally, what system we implement (i know that argument was a few days ago) is almost irrelevant at this point. If i'm going to write, it's not going to be because of the gaming system that we have in play, it's going to be because i want to write. And for me that really comes down to three things: subject matter, people, and general activity. I want to like and be interested in what i'm writing about, and i want to write with people i like (this is where the hostility thing i've seen mentioned would come into play), and i would need consistent activity all around (on my end and my partners' end). My problem right now is that i generally am uninterested in DBZ, and i have no time, and it seems like no one else has the time or the desire. Regardless of any gaming system changes, this is still going to be a problem.

Sorry if this has already been said. As for the subject matter, the whole 'flying around and fighting bad guys' shit just doesn't do it for me anymore. The emotional, depth-of-character writing after the reset really kept me involved. I've also always been a sucker for well-run sagas as opposed to personal storylines.

Edit: As for the hostility bit, I know I'm probably one of the big offenders on that front. I got in a lot of unnecessary and childish arguments with people, most of the time just because there was a growing sense of resentment against that person. So, yeah, apologies.

[John Doe]

Hate: New YouTube layout. The videos keep lagging for me. Plus all the general buttfuckery.

[Alexander Trafford]

Hate: Finals.

[Kayne]

Hate: Finals.

Same here >.<

[Ashe]

Same here >.<

Yep

[John Doe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61-OMrOxyso

[Piper Juunanagou]

Hate: Having to leave Argentina

[Waffuru]

Hate: Having to leave Argentina

http://youtu.be/4Spy3Nd2D6w?t=2m16s