The epic Freiza vs Goku debate

[Captain Silver]

I think Kaioken gives a percent boost, but I'm not sure. =/

[Pink Underoo]

Originally posted by Super Buu

Originally posted by Spice
That doesn't make much sense Tom. Kaio-Ken multiplies Power Level by the Tier, so x20 would multiply his Power Level by, literally, x20, not x2. However, we've already gone through this quarrel countless times, your Manga stats vs my Anime stats, grrr =P.

Anime Power Levels
Goku: 300,000
Goku[Kaio-Ken x10]: 3,000,000
Goku[Kaio-Ken x20]: 6,000,000
Goku[Super Saiyan]: 15,000,000

Frieza: 530,000
Frieza[Form 2]: 1,000,000
Frieza[Form 3]: 2,500,000
Frieza[Form 4 25%]: 4,000,000
Frieza[Form 4 50%]: 6,000,000
Frieza[Form 4 70%]: 8,400,000
Frieza[Form 4 100%]: 12,000,000


Yes, I believe your sox have just been rawked.

EDIT: Oops, I didn't fully analyze your stats; they actually match mine with a few differences, lol.

People seem generally to think this, but it was never stated in the anime or manga that Kaioken actually does that. I mean, think about it. If Kaioken x2 doubles his power level, what the hell does just regular Kaioken do? I think it just multiplies the bonus he gets, rather than his actual power level, and thus I don't believe the theoretical power levels people give in regards to Kaioken.

Oh, and I agree with Kollifum/Krakanot etc. Frieza would have kicked Goku's ass had he not gone SSJ. He survived a spirit bomb ffs! Goku was going all-out through the whole battle, using Kaioken constantly, and Frieza wasn't even trying. Even Kai said that Goku was losing.

There is no such thing as "double Kaioken," that's just anime trash. Back during the battle against Vegeta base Goku was 8,000, Kaioken Goku was 16,000 (still less than Vegeta's base 18,000), triple Kaiouken Goku was 24,000 (equal to Vegeta's Gallick Gun), and Kaiouken x4 Goku was 32,000.

As for Kaioken x10 and x20, don't forget Goku's training in the spaceship. He was practically killing himself every day, and the only reason he increased so fast was because he ate the biggest bag of senzu beans ever seen.

Originally posted by Kakarot
Goku's power level on arriving on namek was 90,000. When Ginyu records his power level Goku used Kaioken. As for any power level beyond that, they aren't official(Except for Furiza's claim that his 2nd form's power level was more than 1,000,000) as Akira Toriyama did not write them while there are ones listed in the Daizenshyuu's, they aren't considered Cannon as they weren't written by Akira Toriyama but rather the group he worked for as well as some of his assistants.

Also, Furiza never announced fighting at anything other than 50% of his full power and then going to 100%. 50% Furiza was able to overcome KKx20 Goku which leads people to believe that the SSJ power up increased Goku's power level by at least 40 times.

Edit: Also, no. Goku couldn't beat Final Form Furiza with Kaioken. Through out the entire fight he was struggling against Furiza and even though he struck out as hard as he could with the Kamehameha, Furiza stopped it with one hand and only got burned.

To say that SSJ give's x40 is disingenuous. The only reason he could even reach that level was because of the benifits of Kaiouken. So, it's more like SSJ increased his power by x2.5 in addition to Kaiouken x20. Didn't we have this talk before? :O

[Super Buu]

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
There is no such thing as "double Kaioken," that's just anime trash. Back during the battle against Vegeta base Goku was 8,000, Kaioken Goku was 16,000 (still less than Vegeta's base 18,000), triple Kaiouken Goku was 24,000 (equal to Vegeta's Gallick Gun), and Kaiouken x4 Goku was 32,000.

That's what I was trying to say, and I agree. Kaioken's multiplier doesn't mean Goku's entire power level is being multiplied by it, it just means the boost is bigger.

I'm pretty sure SSJ is stronger by itself than Kaioken, though, as the only time Goku used Kaioken and SSJ together was in the filler afterlife saga against Pikkon. When he was SSJ against Frieza, there was no red aura/tint. My guess is that you can't use two at the same time - your power just goes to the strongest powerup. Like, you can't go SSJ and SSJ3, and have them 'stack'. The SSJ+KK was non-canon, so I guess that doesn't really count.

[Pink Underoo]

Originally posted by Super Buu

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
There is no such thing as "double Kaioken," that's just anime trash. Back during the battle against Vegeta base Goku was 8,000, Kaioken Goku was 16,000 (still less than Vegeta's base 18,000), triple Kaiouken Goku was 24,000 (equal to Vegeta's Gallick Gun), and Kaiouken x4 Goku was 32,000.

That's what I was trying to say, and I agree. Kaioken's multiplier doesn't mean Goku's entire power level is being multiplied by it, it just means the boost is bigger.

I'm pretty sure SSJ is stronger by itself than Kaioken, though, as the only time Goku used Kaioken and SSJ together was in the filler afterlife saga against Pikkon. When he was SSJ against Frieza, there was no red aura/tint. My guess is that you can't use two at the same time - your power just goes to the strongest powerup. Like, you can't go SSJ and SSJ3, and have them 'stack'. The SSJ+KK was non-canon, so I guess that doesn't really count.

Yeah, filler = pointless. =/

The argument that Goku's SSJ is x2 + x20 instead of x40 seems semantical, but it's important when you think about other characters that also use SSJ in the manga.

Think about the thematic significance: before Goku, Kaiosama said that nobody had mastered Kaioken, so Goku using Kaioken represented the fruits of hard work (during the Goku vs Vegeta fight on earth, Goku says, "a low-class can surpass an elite... if he trains hard enough"). And in the fight against Freiza he was using Kaioken at such a high level of skill that nobody but Kaiosama knew about it, so at that point it's essentially the same as his base power level.

On the other hand, Vegeta's power level, which represents natural talent, is practically always above Goku's power level without Kaioken (the only exception is when Goku first lands on Namek). During the fight against final form Freiza, Vegeta was healed by Dende and became significantly stronger than Piccolo (who was 800,000) while Goku w/o Kaioken was only 300,000. Later, the gap between them gets larger when Vegeta is resurrected and he's even stronger. Also take into account that during the Android saga Vegeta was training at x400 gravity, and since x100 gravity gave Goku a maximum of 1.8 million (base 90,000 + Kaioken x20) we have to say that Vegeta is at least four times that (which makes him ~7.2 million) and he continued to train further before he got SSJ.

At that point, if SSJ gives Vegeta merely x30 or even x20 he'd be as strong if not stronger than Goku. So, since his base power level is always greater than Goku w/o Kaioken then the real SSJ factor has to be a lot smaller, and Kaioken (hard work) is the deciding factor that gives low-class Goku the advantage.

[Super Buu]

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
And in the fight against Freiza he was using Kaioken at such a high level of skill that nobody but Kaiosama knew about it, so at that point it's essentially the same as his base power level.

You could still see the red aura. Tien and the rest just weren't as versed with Kaioken, and were too dumb to see it.

It's an interesting theory, but I think Vegeta just never caught up to Goku once the latter got SSJ. In DBZ, the stronger you are the faster your power level rises (it's always exponential) and since Goku had SSJ for so many years before Vegeta finally achieved it, he just put a gap between them that never got closed. Training at 100x gravity was just trying to emulate what it would be like to use SSJ, what with the extreme drain. All the while, Goku was still gaining faster - that's my theory, at least.

[Deo]

So since we've moved onto the topic of Vegeta VS Goku, do we agree that Freiza Final Form (Before super muscle power up) rapes Goku normal?

[Kirano]

Freiza Final Form > Normal Goku

[Nori]

I still don't beleive that Final Form Frieza, before he powered up, rapes Goku.

[Deo]

Even though mathematics, general consensus, the more or less proof that the stats you were using aren't actually canon and snippits from the manga/anime claim otherwise?

[Nori]

Aren't cannon? I don't beleive that. They are from the whatever that starts with a D, that *is* considered cannon. What snippits from the Anime or from the Manga prove otherwise?

Before Frieza powered up Goku was going toe to toe with him. He stopped everything Frieza sent his way until he became *tired*, as I have stated. When he became tired he has to resort to the Spirit Bomb, and after that.. well.. SSJ took it away.

[Deo]

...exactly. You just admitted Goku was losing and would have lost without SSj. He got tired because he was going on all cylinders while Freiza was toying with him. Even after Goku punched him a dozen times, he was just like 'haha, I was dicking around. I'll kick your ass now.' without going to super powered up Freiza.

That right there proves my point.

[Nori]

No I didn't. If you want to put words in my mouth go ahead and do so.

[Deo]

Before Frieza powered up Goku was going toe to toe with him. He stopped everything Frieza sent his way until he became *tired*, as I have stated.

What exactly does that mean then?

[Nori]

That Goku was on par with Frieza and that he wouldn't get decimated in a blink of a eye.

BTW, I always view Kaioken as a multiplication of ones power. I think someone said it wasn't.. but I dunno.

Also, Goku's base was higher then 90,000. You have to incorperate that he had the crap beaten out of him and that a Saiyan's power rises dramatically after that. That's just to Kakarot or whoever posted that.

[Deo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go8shemOqNc

They were on par, and by on par, neither of them hit one another almost 90% of the time.

Then Goku got 'tired', and then Freiza started moving even faster then he was before, showing how he was holding back before. Goku was STILL using Kaioken, so his power level couldn't have decreased that much.

That being said, Freiza had accessed higher levels of his power before fully transforming. When he fought SSj Goku without muscle mass increase, he was trying. That much attempt on Freiza's part against normal Goku would have destroyed him, while not making him 'Full Power Freiza' but keeping him 'Final Form Freiza'

Goku = stomped flat.

I think it should also be stated that since Freiza was mostly using just his tail to kick Goku's ass and not his fists or kicks a lot of the time show's how cocky he was fighting, and obviously not using his full ability even during the beginning of the fight.

[Pink Underoo]

The anime is trash. Goku's Kaioken x10 was no match for half-powered Freiza. The Kaioken x20 was equal to half-power Freiza, but Goku was only able to use it for one major attack and it failed.

[Nori]

I honestly don't see where you see Frieza even romotely increasing in power when he is *trying*. He only increases in power when he jumps to 100%, and even then he is worn down so fast it is over quickly.

Powerlevel wouldn't have decreased that much? Let's say he had a base of 100,000 and got tired and only dropped to.. 97,000.


That already is a 60,000 powerlevel drop. Now odds are he would be much more tired then that, as well as his powerlevel being much higher in base. So.. yeah. While I just said that very confusingly (If that isn't a word I claim it), it shows that even the slightest bit of power loss drastically lowers his power in Kaioken.

Also, no offense to the creator intended, but AMV's portray the users point of veiw on the subject. If the creator wanted he could show all the parts where Frieza is decimating Goku, so yeah, I don't use AMV's.

Edit: To your tail comment:

Yeah your right. A extra limb could never be used as a fighting weapon aside from being cocky.

[Deo]

Dabura supports my argument.

Goku was on par with Freiza for one attack, and failed.

Thusly, he was half strength of Freiza for the rest of the fight.

1/2 strength of your opponent = you getting raped.

[Nori]

I'm pretty sure that x20 Kaioken was towards the Spirit Bomb point, right Dabura?

[Deo]

Goku's Kaioken x10 was no match for half-powered Freiza.