The epic Freiza vs Goku debate

[Deo]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori

Originally posted by Kollifum
He could compete with 25% Freiza.

Whoop-dee-doo.

Final Form means anything up to 75%.

Even his max power was below 50% Freiza, therefore, they weren't matched up in the slightest. Freiza just had to restrain himself a bit less to toy with Goku.

Actually, it does. That's what I'v been trying to say all along.

Then you've been wording it horribly and making up your own definitions for what Final Form Freiza entails. Final Form = anything up to and below 75%.

[Nori]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori
Goku on the other hand was competing with Frieza. Yes, it was 1% Frieza. However he was able to hurt him, outrun a explosion that should have killed him, dodge/manage to get out of every attack that was thrown his way.

That's what I said first off, and what I have been implementing this entire time. Yes, I found it was 25% Frieza and not 1%, but it still stands. If you forgot it's not my fault.

[Deo]

Right. Back pedal, attempt to save face after arguing this entire time without mentioning that once. Including to other people who haven't read that post at all. Seems unlikely that's what you were basing it on when you started pulling out stats and relying on other people's comments about 50% Freiza as evidence.

[Nori]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori
Goku on the other hand was competing with Frieza. Yes, it was 1% Frieza. However he was able to hurt him, outrun a explosion that should have killed him, dodge/manage to get out of every attack that was thrown his way.

That's what I said first off, and what I have been implementing this entire time. Yes, I found it was 25% Frieza and not 1%, but it still stands. If you forgot it's not my fault.

Also, will you please stop mentioning backpedeling? The last time you said that over AIM was when things didn't go your way either.

I never *once* stated the Goku was better and would beat Frieza.


Edit: Also, sorry for misunderstanding what Kakarot said. You don't have to blow it out of porportion, Kollifum.

[Deo]

He's not equal either. Which is what you were saying.

Freiza did things like fight with just his tail, most of the time with his arms crossed, dodge and reappear with his back facing Goku and dodge again when he attacked without looking, etc.

I hardly call that on par.

[Nori]

Then your words confuse me. I mean, you just said he *was*.

I still consider his tail a actual fighting device. I also consider Goku being able to land hits/block attacks enough to say he is on par with Frieza at that point.

[Deo]

Because Freiza was toying with him.

Goku was able to defend himself against Freiza playing with him like he wasn't worth even looking at.

If that's what your argument was all about..well....I honestly think it's a hollow victory, but you can have it.

[Nori]

Thank you. Then I'v finally proven my point.

Goku > Gohan in the Frieza saga.

[Drake]

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura

I'm not saying that Kaioken is better than SSJ, but Goku would never have had the power to become SSJ if he didn't use Kaioken to ascend to the such an ungodly level that Toriyama stopped giving character power levels. I'm only following the theme set by Toriyama: that without hard work (which is embodied by sheer training early in the manga, and Kaioken becomes a part of that) Goku is just a low-class fighter compared to everyone else.

Goku didn't have energy left to use a Kaioken when Kuririn died, he could barely stand. He went from zero to super saiyajin in an instant there wasn't any "Powering Up" nor did he have the energy to do a Kaioken until he'd gone SSJ. But his power level rose way above that before he even tried powering up.

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
The negative effects of Kaioken, which Goku learned largely because he was Saiyan and could adapt to them, could simply be negated by the ultimate power of the Saiyan's golden transformation, among other things (like how after the Genki Dama Goku was so tired he couldn't stand up, but transforming into SSJ restored his stamina completely). But I didn't want to go there because this sort of discussion breaks down to fandom which leads to insanity. ~_~

The negative effects never left, they always stayed just that the existed at high levels with large gaps between them. Goku still was unsure if his body could handle a 20x Kaioken just like he was unsure if he could handle a 3x one.

As for SSJ, well that breaks all the laws so who cares we could speculate where that power comes from but it's the only time it's replenished energy before.

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
You're so wrong it hurts ;_; even in Naruto, Naruto has a degree of abnormal power in the form of the Kyuubi but he's still considered as one of the characters that implements "hard work."

Goku's potential is likewise just the part of his character that makes his hard work so effective. In the very first chapter we see Goku breaking logs apart, catching giant man-eating fish, and throwing a car over with his bare hands. Of course it can partially be attributed to latent potential, but it shows that his daily chores in life are a super training regimen.

This is expounding on when Roshi tutors him for the 21st tournament and he grows stronger by delivering milk while wearing a heavy turtle shell and digging dirt fields barehanded, when he goes searching for the Dragonballs as training for the 22nd tournament and he becomes even stronger, fighting Piccolo Daioumon and more training before the 23rd tournament and he becomes stronger than Kami, when he finally dies and goes to Kaiosama's and gets supernatural training in Kaioken, training at x100 gravity and quickly improving the "God Power" with SSJ, etc, etc and so forth. HARD WORK, MUTHAFUKA

If you really want to look at it that way, then Sasuke, and Neji are hard workers too. Everyone in DB worked that hard, but Goku and always managed to surpass them and grow at an accelerated rate. During the Cell Saga Goku focused most of his time on improving Gohan's fighting skill as well as helping him go SSJ yet he managed to completely outclass Vegeta even though both him and Trunks trained to the very limit and he was supposed to be an elite fighter.

You think Tenshinhan, who had spent all his life training to the extreme was not hardworking enough? Even though Goku matched his strength and surpassed him as a child?

Sure Goku worked hard, but no harder than anyone else and yet he still ended up on top. In DB, Goku is the fighting genius.

[Deo]

...the hell. What's that got to do with this thread?

I don't care about that.

[Nori]

That is very true. Tien worked the hardest out of everyone perhaps. I mean, Vegeta worked extremely hard.. but Tien was always in isolation training.

[OldSpice]

I can't believe this is still going on >.>

How many times are you all going to repeat yourselves before you call it a day.

[Nori]

Originally posted by Kollifum
...the hell. What's that got to do with this thread?

I don't care about that.

Everything. You made this thread because I said it shouldn't be in the Blue Dragon post (Which was my fault to start with).

You argued that Gohan was the strongest in the Freiza Saga at that point, but I argued that Goku was because he was able to fight Frieza at 25% while Gohan couldn't harm second form Frieza.

Don't remember? Check back at that thread. I came back to this thread to make it proven/shown/whatever that Goku can fight 25% Frieza.

So..Yeah.

Originally posted by Spice
I can't believe this is still going on >.>

How many times are you all going to repeat yourselves before you call it a day.

I'm actually done. However, if you were to start singing Spice Girls..

[OldSpice]

If you wanna be my lover, you gotta get with my friends, Akane.

[Nori]

..Oh..My..God.

<3.

[Deo]

Well, on that point, neither Goku or Gohan could really hurt 25% Freiza.

And I was arguing that Gohan was able to ascend to a higher power level over his comfortable range compared to his father when Goku is angry.

AKANE C.F.

[Nori]

Then why have you said/awknowledged that he can, twice?

[Deo]

I never said he could hurt Freiza. I said he could withstand Freiza's assault.

Gok never once hurt Freiza before the spirit bomb.

Not really.

[Nori]

Yeah. Your right. Pounding him in the face/torso/out running a move at the speed of light/burning his hand and making him take it seriously with blocking the Kamehameha/bruising him all over = no damage at all.

I'm going now. ^_^

Edit: Assuming that Screaming = Concentrating and effort as it always does in DBZ.

[Nori]

Your tricking me into saying hurt him. I want to stress *compete* with him.