The epic Freiza vs Goku debate

[Deo]

They weren't bruises. They were scratches.

You can scratch the paint on a suit of armor without doing damage to it's occupant.

And if you can't hurt someone during a fight, I don't think you can compete with them. You can run away from them. Not compete. You don't win a fight by running away.

[Nori]

Cause you know, scratches aren't damage to tissue or anything.

Never said win. I said compete.

[Deo]

Who ever succumbed to a series of scratches?

Most of which were no longer even apparent on Freiza after he started fighting at 50%.

And again. You can't compete if you don't have a chance of winning. Goku did no real damage, therefore stood no chance, therefore was not competition.

[Nori]

Originally posted by Kollifum
Who ever succumbed to a series of scratches?

Most of which were no longer even apparent on Freiza after he started fighting at 50%.

And again. You can't compete if you don't have a chance of winning. Goku did no real damage, therefore stood no chance, therefore was not competition.

I have. Papercuts suck.

He could compete with Frieza because he lasted more then a minute. If you want to count Anime terms, there was most likely a good twenty episodes where he fought Goku without going SSJ. So, yeah. XD.

[Deo]

If by fought, you count throwing attacks that did nothing but superficial 'damage', note the quotation marks, get pounded, dodge attacks that had no real effort behind them on Freiza's part, and so forth competing.

Freiza didn't try. At all. It was not competition. Competition requires both people to be actually trying.

You know. Like in boxing. If one fighter is toying with the other, only letting him hold on by whatever ground the other gives him, it's not called competing. It's called toying with his opponent.

[Nori]

Yeah. Goku only beat him around like he was nothing for a short period of time. I mean. XD. This has gotten so lame. Well, it got lame a good 40 posts ago.

I'm done. XD. It's basically come down to you trying to weasel your way out by defining damage.

[Jewtastic]

Any power level recorded after the scouters were destroyed is mere speculation...so I dont see how any one could be sure of this one way or the other.

[Pink Underoo]

Originally posted by Kakarot
Goku didn't have energy left to use a Kaioken when Kuririn died, he could barely stand. He went from zero to super saiyajin in an instant there wasn't any "Powering Up" nor did he have the energy to do a Kaioken until he'd gone SSJ. But his power level rose way above that before he even tried powering up

The negative effects never left, they always stayed just that the existed at high levels with large gaps between them. Goku still was unsure if his body could handle a 20x Kaioken just like he was unsure if he could handle a 3x one.

As for SSJ, well that breaks all the laws so who cares we could speculate where that power comes from but it's the only time it's replenished energy before.

I know. But the fact that he was able to recover is just "story magic," it never happens again so it's not really part of the transformation, and by picking on things like that then anybody can reasonably prove just about anything. So, as a solid context for my argument I'm bringing in other characters that also get to use SSJ, remarking on their thematic relevance, and Goku's thematic relevence and how he uses SSJ and how he got there.

To summerize what my original point was: the power multiplication given by Super Saiyan has to be much, much lower for characters like Vegeta and Gohan if Goku is supposed to be stronger than them (at the end of the Freiza saga, character-compairsons place Vegeta's base ki far beyond Goku's). Since both elite Vegeta and power-monster Gohan have more base ki and latent potential than Goku, the only explination is that Goku has Kaioken. If Vegeta is increasing at 10 ki points an hour, and Gohan is increasing at 18 ki points an hour, and Goku is doing only 1 ki point an hour, it makes no difference because Goku can go x20. Even if Vegeta and Gohan get more out of transforming into SSJ, Goku still trumps them with his power hack. =o

About Kaioken's negative effects, I do hope you realize I was being somewhat sarcastic. But the truth is that the effects are relative to his maximum. If x4 is Goku's best effort at earth, then x2 (normal Kaioken) isn't going to be so bad. If x20 is his maximum at Namek, then x10 will be easier than x3 back on earth. Following in that vein, if he can obtain the equivalent of x40 from SSJ, then the x20 from Kaioken is likely a part of that and it shouldn't be a problem anymore.

If you really want to look at it that way, then Sasuke, and Neji are hard workers too. Everyone in DB worked that hard, but Goku and always managed to surpass them and grow at an accelerated rate. During the Cell Saga Goku focused most of his time on improving Gohan's fighting skill as well as helping him go SSJ yet he managed to completely outclass Vegeta even though both him and Trunks trained to the very limit and he was supposed to be an elite fighter.

You think Tenshinhan, who had spent all his life training to the extreme was not hardworking enough? Even though Goku matched his strength and surpassed him as a child?

Sure Goku worked hard, but no harder than anyone else and yet he still ended up on top. In DB, Goku is the fighting genius.

Again, this gets semantical. Goku, despite being naturally weaker than Vegeta and Gohan, has Kaioken. When Goku was teaching Gohan in the RoSaT their practice was part of the training (even though it was limited to the last few months or whatever), whereas Vegeta and Trunks trained seperately. Not only that, Trunks suffers from the same thematic foible his father does: being a loner only takes you so far, plus he's merely following in the footsteps of the lesser of the two dominant characters. The plot dictates that he's just another lesser hero with the Ascended Saiyan ability, while Gohan becomes the new main hero thus he gets the great SSJ2 ability.

Tenshinhan is Dragonball's equivalent to Naruto's Rock Lee. Hard worker, but merely human.

Yes, Goku is the fighting genius. That's a reason why he alone learned (or was given access to) Kaioken (the fruits of hard work) but, combined with being a Saiyan (being of a superior nature, which could mean mentality or ethics for thematic purposes), he took it to an obscene level.

[Deo]

Originally posted by Akane Kimidori
Yeah. Goku only beat him around like he was nothing for a short period of time. I mean. XD. This has gotten so lame. Well, it got lame a good 40 posts ago.

I'm done. XD. It's basically come down to you trying to weasel your way out by defining damage.

If you punch someone in the face, and they stand up, without so much as a slight bruise...I hardly call that damage at all. >_>

[Pink Underoo]

i hit the quote button instead of edit T_T

[Kirano]

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
Toriyama always has two characters that are of equal power fight in the end.

KKx10 Goku = final form Freiza
KKx20 Goku = half-power final form Freiza
SSJ Goku = full power final form Freiza

The plot dictates the winner.

Not to mention SS2 Gohan = Ultimate Perfect Cell

[Pink Underoo]

Originally posted by Bulma

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
Toriyama always has two characters that are of equal power fight in the end.

KKx10 Goku = final form Freiza
KKx20 Goku = half-power final form Freiza
SSJ Goku = full power final form Freiza

The plot dictates the winner.

Not to mention SS2 Gohan = Ultimate Perfect Cell

From the beginning:

Kid Goku = Roshi in the 21st tournament
Adolescent Goku = Tenshinhan in the 22nd tournament
Goku = Piccolo in the 23rd tournament

It started getting a little stale, so major fights became more one-sided with pivotal moments being evenly matched

Kaioken x3 Goku's Kamehameha = Vegeta's Gallick Gun
Kaioken x20 Goku = half-powered final form Freiza
SSJ Goku = full power final form Freiza

Now even one-sided battles are old news, so give Goku a heart virus, add Vegeta's time-traveling son that turns into a story arc that's a race-against-the-clock to destroy the reborn Red Ribbon Army topped with a super villain who's essentially every other major character combined that gets beaten by Gohan who takes on the mantle of Hero of Earth, which brings the story full-circle in every way imaginable.

Piccolo/Kami fusion = Android 17
Android 16 = strong Imperfect Cell
Tenshinhan's Shinkikoho = Semi-perfect Cell
SSJ2 Gohan = Ultra Perfect Cell

The series gets an artificial extension with the Buu saga, there are no themes, everything that happens is regurgitated from previous sagas, everyone becomes obscenely powerful and there are no evenly-matched fights, the Spirit Bomb finally kills something, and Toriyama sells the franchise off to ensure that he'll never work on it again. =o

[Drake]

SSJ2 Gohan was stronger than Ultra Perfect Cell, or whatever you want to call him. When his arm was hit while protecting Vegeta, it severely drained his Ki Energy and in the end when he was in the midst of a power struggle with Cell Goku said that Gohan was still holding back some of his power.

[Bojack]

7 pages in a day? Are you fucking kidding me?

[Pink Underoo]

Bah, that entire final event was insane. If Cell was still weaker than SSj2 Gohan it would be the first time in the entire series where a full-powered stronger character is seriously injured by a weaker character's attack. It just doesn't seem to fit in. There are plenty of instances where a weaker character goes all-out and lands their attack but fails miserably, though.

[Downy Peach]

Goku > Freiza.

[Orion]

Originally posted by Bojack
7 pages in a day? Are you fucking kidding me?

Are you really that surprised?

[Deo]

Originally posted by Kollifum the II
Goku < Freiza.

Fixed.

[Super Buu]

Originally posted by Mighty Dabura
Bah, that entire final event was insane. If Cell was still weaker than SSj2 Gohan it would be the first time in the entire series where a full-powered stronger character is seriously injured by a weaker character's attack. It just doesn't seem to fit in. There are plenty of instances where a weaker character goes all-out and lands their attack but fails miserably, though.

In any other situation, Gohan wouldn't have been hurt by it because he would have just dodged it. But he was saving Vegeta, so he took the hit and got injured.

I think SSJ2 Gohan was still stronger than Ultra Perfect Cell, just extremely tired whereas Cell was magically rejuvenated (after just regenerating his whole body from a single cell ... wtf, Toriyama?).

[Downy Peach]

Originally posted by Kollifum

Originally posted by Kollifum the II
Goku < Freiza.

Fixed.

Haha, unbelievable. It was on TV, it was in the Manga. It doesn't require seven pages, post after post, of what seems to be an endless and repetitive argument. It really doesn't.

And manipulating a quote doesn't score you any brownie points either.