Essay!!!!

[Minoshia]

Che Guevara for some country.

Michael Collins- Ireland

[Hellfighter 17]

Possibly Cuba?!

And all communists and guerrillas alike.

[Minoshia]

I was actually going to go with Argentina or Bolivia, ya know where he was born and where he was executed. his death made him a hero

[Hellfighter 17]

He is most commonly known for his help in the 'freeing' of Cuba, as far as I'm aware.

[Bardock]

Morality is a thing of human invention, so therefore, anything "right" or "wrong," or in this case, "heroic" and "dirty rotten bastard" is a matter of the majority opinion. Oooooooh.

[Tobias]

Just because it takes human level intelligence to understand it doesn't mean morality is a human invention. At least not in the sense you are using it. Just because a legion of people accept something as fact doesn't change the underlying truth even if only one or no person realizes it. In the end we can only trust our own opinions of course, but they are opinions on a very real thing.

Edit: Its like this, everyone in the world is looking at morality through slightly differently tinted glasses. Just because we all see it differently doesn't mean its not there.

[Hellfighter 17]

One cannot show that it is there or not.

I'm moreso of the opinion that it isn't; believing in objective morals would be giving humans, or sentient beings overall, a special place in the Universe, and I see no reason for such a thing.

[Tobias]

Why would it give humans a special place? If one subscribes to the fact that it exists on a level other than human, or sentient, thought then things were 'wrong' or 'right' long before sentience came around and would be so after. Sentience is simply a means by which we can grasp the concept of its existence, albeit colored thoroughly by interpretation. Its something that simply is.

Impossible to prove of course, just like everything else. But its fun to argue these things sometimes.

[Minoshia]

He is most commonly known for his help in the 'freeing' of Cuba, as far as I'm aware.

True, but his work in Bolivia and his resulting death is what made him a martyr for the revolutionaries worldwide.

[Hellfighter 17]

Why would it give humans a special place? If one subscribes to the fact that it exists on a level other than human, or sentient, thought then things were 'wrong' or 'right' long before sentience came around and would be so after. Sentience is simply a means by which we can grasp the concept of its existence, albeit colored thoroughly by interpretation. Its something that simply is.

Impossible to prove of course, just like everything else. But its fun to argue these things sometimes.

I'm aware that it would be so even if we and any other sentient species out there never came to be, but it would give the concept of sentience a special place. Also, there is the question of why there are these objective morals. A supernatural being is pretty much required, for the only use of these objective morals would be as a way to 'grade' sentient people after they have lived in the physical realm. Otherwise, what's the point of having objective morals that may never be adhered to (even if a sentient species comes along)?

[Zangya]

Wow. Bardock, you just spawned a debate worthy of Jay Leno vs. David Letterman fame.

[Tobias]

We are obviously very bored Zan.

I'm aware that it would be so even if we and any other sentient species out there never came to be, but it would give the concept of sentience a special place. Also, there is the question of why there are these objective morals. A supernatural being is pretty much required, for the only use of these objective morals would be as a way to 'grade' sentient people after they have lived in the physical realm. Otherwise, what's the point of having objective morals that may never be adhered to (even if a sentient species comes along)?

There is no "point" because its not something set forward a deity. A god is only required if one is unable to comfortably interpret morality all by his lonesome. Once again it is merely a fact of existence.

Back to this special place. I suppose you could say sentience is special in that it is required to be aware of morality's existence, but only in the same way that its required for many abstract concepts and I don't see how it devalues my position.

[Hellfighter 17]

Alright, then. Let's say that a man laying with another man in a sexual manner is objectively immoral. If one happens to commit the offense, what then? Objective morals must have a reason, a possible use. What is their use here? What is one's consequence for acting in an immoral manner? If there is none, then it objective morals are useless and would always be useless, thus effectively do not exist.

My point was that it is really only applicable to sentient beings. This does not necessarily lessen your position, but I don't see any reason why sentience should be all that special. I am of the Copernican idea that we are an insignificant species living in an insignificant time period on an insignificant planet in an insignificant solar system, in an insignificant galaxy (not to mention an insignificant part of a galaxy), in an insignificant galaxy cluster, in an insignificant supercluster. Also, it presupposes free will, which I see no reason to believe in.

[Tobias]

I don't see why usefulness is a prerequisite for existence.

I do agree that in a large sense humans are completely insignificant. I disagree that we don't have free will. Evolutionary Imperatives are overrated. But thats a completely different debate and I'm all argued out.

[Hellfighter 17]

Well, by usefulness, I meant any theoretically discernible effect. I'm pretty sure that is a prerequisite for existence.

As far as I can tell, the laws of nature do not allow for free will - it would take a supernatural cause which we do not understand, which furthers the idea that a supernatural being is required by the idea of objective morals.

[Tobias]

As far as I can tell,

Theres your problem.





=D

[Hellfighter 17]

That was a qualifier, jackass. >=o

I do not have ultimate knowledge, so I don't like to talk as though I do, but from all the literature I've read on physics, free will is incompatible with it.

[Raditzu]

So, I need to have some references. If people who live outside the states wouldn't mind PMing me a name and country, that would be awesome.

=D