Today...

[Aero]

Gentlemen, gentlemen. All this fighting is pointless, America and England are both awesome. We should forget this arguement and focus on the real enemy here. Canadia. What with their, maple syrup, and moose's, and egg shaped heads, beady eyes, and bottom jaws completely disconnected to the rest of the head.

Canada sucks.

Canada protects America from ice. So when the northern ice caps melt, it will warn us Americans to gtfo of dodge.

[Amadeus]

My remark on the firebombings was that they were highly effective, but the psychological impact of the A-bombs were far greater. One bomb did in a second what it took weeks of napalm to do.

Not really. It took several months for the nuclear radiation to cause the same death toll that was caused by the bombing of Dresden in a relativly short span of time.

I agree that the Red Army turning on Japan influenced the decision to surrender. They were already on the defensive since Midway and now had another whole force coming at them from the other side. BUT you can't say that fire bombs were more effective when the Japanese withstood them for months and then surrendered within the same week of the drop of the A-bombs.

The timing of the A-bombs coincides with the Soviet declaration of war and the launching of operation August Storm. That is why it may seem like it was the A-bombs that influenced the Japanese to surrender.

[Hellfighter 17]

*goes wide eyed* I'm hoping this is a joke. Enjoy that invasion of Japan that would have happened without Fat Man and Little Boy.

Uhm, there is no way that Japan would have come back. All the nuclear bombs did was make the victory come a bit faster for America. The only problem posed was for troops in Japan. O.o

You're talking about WW1. In WW1 we looked liked pussies.


In WW2 we completely ran Germany out of France. All that England did was neutralize the Luftwaffe. Also, we prevented them from creating the Atom Bomb. Russia did their part too, by completely coming back from defeat and raping the Germans on the eastern front.

London was left in ruins. from all of the bombardments.


So yeah, you guys owe us big time.

All that England did? You do know that the Luftwaffe was pretty much the strongest arm of the German armed forces, right? Also, Norwegians are pretty much the ones responsible for making sure that the Germans did not attain nuclear weaponry.

Lastly, Canada rocks. We have never lost a war.

[Yamu]

Hey, history majors have to write something for their Ph.D. dissertation, so I'm not surprised this theory is out there, but that doesn't change the fact that the A-bombs were critical in ending the war in the Pacific early. You can site other factors as contributory to their surrender but to deny that the nuclear attacks on Japan was not the leading cause to their surrender instead of making up break our teeth on a land invasion is preposterous.

[Saz]

Lastly, Canada rocks. We have never lost a war.

Has Canada ever actually fought a war? 0.o

[Uno]

Well, if you've never fought, then you've never lost.

And I know that wars have been fought in Canada, but I don't remeber if it was Canada that fought or somebody else. It involved George Washington, I know that much.

[Hellfighter 17]

War of 1812, Boer War, World War I, World War II, and the War in Afghanistan off the top of my head, and I am by no means a war buff. This does not include the countless peacekeeping missions that we have engaged in with our troops and through contributions by NATO, where Canadians were the ones who pretty much started modern peacekeeping (Lester B. Pearson for the win).

Also, Yamu, you implied that Japan would have invaded Britain, which they were in no condition for.

[Yamu]

No, I implied that without America and the A-bomb England might have won the European campaign after their victory in the Battle of Britain but would have still faced overwhelming odds in trying to win in the Pacific. Without the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the U.S. nearly single handedly winning the Pacific while helping in Europe in would have been impossible for the UK to beaten the Japanese it what promised to be a costly land war.

I meant to imply England invading Japan would have sucked NOT Japan invading England would have sucked.

[Hellfighter 17]

no u

[Bra]

Unbelievable. For anyone to claim America was 'useless' or whatever in World War II is full of shit. North America almost singlehandedly prevented the German dominion of the vast majority of Europe. Sure you 'weakened' their forces, but had the United States not intervened, your efforts would have been for naught. It took the combined effort of every nation in the Allied Forces to make an appreciable impact.

If not for the United States' and Russia's combined efforts, I sincerely believe Germany would have won World War II. They were totally capable of taking one superpower at a time, but Hitler just had to piss off both the big players. I'm glad he did, too. Glad they lost.

That is not to say that the US or Russia alone could have beaten Germany. I sincerely doubt it. (Well, maybe Russia could have, but the war would have been much longer, I would imagine) But without either one of them, Europe would look very different today.

In the Japan section of the war, I'd have to agree with Amadeus that firebombing was more effective than the ancient nukes of the time. But nobody can possibly argue that seeing two cities lit up under the two most outrageously powerful, singular attacks on civilians did not have a severely damaging effect on Japan's morale.

Japan had to have been left wondering if America had more. The United States played a risky gamble, claiming there were, in fact, several more nukes at their disposal. The looming threat of nuclear armageddon is not something the Emperor or his subordinates could have taken lightly.

[Amadeus]

You can site other factors as contributory to their surrender but to deny that the nuclear attacks on Japan was not the leading cause to their surrender instead of making up break our teeth on a land invasion is preposterous.

The only reason it is preposterous is beacuse that is what mainstream history tends to make most people belive. But the truth is, the atomic bombings were unnecessary from a military standpoint. Japan was demolished, its navy and air forces crippled by severe losses and fuel shortages. Despite the propaganda, the Japanese leadership realised this as well and wanted to reach a negotiated peace so they could preserve the Emperor. Top US military figures knew this as well since the Allies had the Japanese naval codes and were well informed of the messages to their embassies.

The real purpose of the atomic bombings was for them to be a show of power. The US by then was well aware that the USSR would be its political opponent in the future. That is why they wanted to show off their new toy with great potential so they would show the Soviets they mean business.

[Yamu]

The bombings were far from unnecessary. True, the reasons behind the attacks included many factors such as the idea that many though the bombs might 'go bad' and we needed to use them before they became useless.

The bombs hastened what had become a foregone conclusion by weeks, maybe months, and saved more lives then they took. Without those strikes the Pacific campaign would have continued, the Japanese were prepped for a land war on Japan even after the Russians rushed through China. Those preparation did not unravel until AFTER Hiroshima and Nagasaki specifically, not just the general time frame.

The reason I doubt the Russian victory in Manchuria as being the true crux if victory is because it was that very action that left the U.S. to drop to bombs to PREVENT them from getting a foothold in Japan. We wanted their help, we didn't want them to run the show. The timeline of events supports the Atom Bomb as being the rational and the other factors to merely be contributing.

[Raditzu]

Unbelievable. For anyone to claim America was 'useless' or whatever in World War II is full of shit. North America almost singlehandedly prevented the German dominion of the vast majority of Europe.

That's why most of America doesn't shut up about it. It was the last time we were genuinely good guys.

[Bardock]

I merely started the thread to show my patriotism for this country which lasts all of a day. I think this sucker is going down the tubes like the Roman Empire, but damn if it's not cool to remember the day the little guy beat the champ.

[Raditzu]

but damn if it's not cool to remember the day the little guy beat the champ.

Preach it, brah.

[Bujin]

Oh, stop your bickering.

I have to live with the fact that my home country gets its ass kick in every single damn war. Seriously, who acts as a stomping ground every time Germany gets bored? France. Who ends up kissing up to America when they get in trouble? France.

Let me put it another way. There have only been two awesome people that I know of to come out of France: Jeanne d'Arc and me.

The fact that I'm more proud of living in America than I am of having been born in France should speak volumes.

Hopefully that inspired some patriotism in somebody. xD

[Bardock]

Yeah, how is it that France turns their noses up at us but come running when there's trouble? I mean, it's not like we're not assholes half the time, but still. Come on.

[Yamu]

I like your toast. And your fries. And your kissing...that has to count for something.

And you get the accent that has panty dropping abilities. I'm from the South, if I had an accent it would not be charming.

[Saz]

Well there's one thing we can all agree on. France sucks balls.

[Raditzu]

if I had an accent it would not be charming.

It's true.