Moves

[Aqua]

I suggest that the number of moves people are allowed to get, aside from paying the 10 tp, also be limited by insight (since that's the closest stat to intelligence...) Otherwise, you have relatively inept characters who, for some inexplicable reason, have dozens of deadly techniques. Just a thought.

[Mal Nova]

I put up for so many moves.. and it bugs you? Edit: I made so many slots so that I didnt have to worry about a thing when it came to moves.

[Kaden]

I don't see a direct correlation between mental aptitude and being able to perfect a series of moves.

In DragonBall, Goku managed to master the Kamehameha while having the intellectual acumen of an eight-year-old.

[Aqua]

It was just a suggestion, but I do think that their should be some kind of check beyond the basic 10 tp. Insight, I think, works as a better check on the number of moves than Int. because, as you mentioned, some rather unintelligent fighters had some great moves and Goku himself was able to mimic nearly any technique. The thing about Goku wasn't that he was inept, he was very ept when it came to fighting (aka insight?), he was just unintelligent.

[Sage]

And Recoome was quite possibly a mongoloid, and had all kinds of insanely powerful techs. =\

[Kaden]

We intentionally got rid of attaching extra benefits to "mental" stats. We won't be doing that again.

[Waffuru]

And as a side note, wouldn't the technique stat make more sense?

[Aqua]

Tech would make sense too. It just seems a little ridiculous to let people have as many moves as they want when the power of the moves isn't monitored by any specific stat. What I mean by that is, either there should be a stat to which the number of moves allowed correlates (like technique or insight), or the power of attacking moves should coincide with a specific stat... or both. Otherwise, you get a person who is devoting all their TP to moves and they aren't losing anything in the trade off because 1) there's no limit to how many moves they can have and/ or 2) there is no real limit to the power of these moves aside from the ambiguous idea that (I'm stronger than you, so my blast wins...).

[Dehan]

Tech would make sense too. It just seems a little ridiculous to let people have as many moves as they want when the power of the moves isn't monitored by any specific stat. What I mean by that is, either there should be a stat to which the number of moves allowed correlates (like technique or insight), or the power of attacking moves should coincide with a specific stat... or both. Otherwise, you get a person who is devoting all their TP to moves and they aren't losing anything in the trade off because 1) there's no limit to how many moves they can have and/ or 2) there is no real limit to the power of these moves aside from the ambiguous idea that (I'm stronger than you, so my blast wins...).

I agree. I think it'll change when the other Techniques are switched over to the new system, specifically Metal Binding, Pyro and other things

[Kaden]

Otherwise, you get a person who is devoting all their TP to moves and they aren't losing anything in the trade off because 1) there's no limit to how many moves they can have and/ or 2) there is no real limit to the power of these moves aside from the ambiguous idea that (I'm stronger than you, so my blast wins...).

Aren't losing anything in the trade? If you're spending points on moves, you're not spending them on stats. How is that not a trade?

You also seem to be assuming that there will never be anything else to use TP on, leaving people with the choice of either spending ridiculous amounts on stats or just continually buying best moves. Which will not be the case forever.

I understand what you guys are saying, but there's nothing to be gained by forcing people to increase a stat if they want more best moves. What would the purpose of that mechanic be? If the only reason you think it should be that way is because it "makes sense" then I'm going to have to completely disagree.

[Mal Nova]

Eh... IM lost... but did you just say that there ws no limiot to moves?

Our attack strength are based on our stats. But in the end it is writing that matters correct? Usually...

Me being the one with the most moves slots at the moment... and the one with the most rejected moves... I beleive staff can discern what is right and what is not.

My moves give me more shit to write about...

[Dehan]

Aren't losing anything in the trade? If you're spending points on moves, you're not spending them on stats. How is that not a trade?

You also seem to be assuming that there will never be anything else to use TP on, leaving people with the choice of either spending ridiculous amounts on stats or just continually buying best moves. Which will not be the case forever.

I understand what you guys are saying, but there's nothing to be gained by forcing people to increase a stat if they want more best moves. What would the purpose of that mechanic be? If the only reason you think it should be that way is because it "makes sense" then I'm going to have to completely disagree.

Eh, makes sense. So does that mean requirements for learning Pyro and others will be done away with and judged on rp and time spent training for it and you merely pay a crapload of TP for the technique? Or something else.

[Aqua]

Aren't losing anything in the trade? If you're spending points on moves, you're not spending them on stats. How is that not a trade?

It's not a trade because, currently, stats have nothing to do with the strength of a move. So if I'm stacking my TP into my stats, what good does it do me if the only vague correlation between stats and moves is my overall strength? Since Retane has inserted himself into this conversation, I will use him as an example. He's gotten like, what, 22 moves? What has he lost by putting his TP towards moves rather than stats? Nothing because a vast majority of his moves have no connection to general strength and, at the moment, that's the only factor of comparison we have to weigh the success of moves. As it stands, a more powerful character (a person with a higher max ki) has a better chance of overpowering/ avoiding an attack... and that's about the extent of the correlation between stats and moves. So, if you have no stat(s) that limit the number of moves that can be obtained, then people like retane can stack up on moves that have nothing to do, really, with max ki and they lose nothing. So their stats are lower... what does it matter when they have 22 moves to your 10 (or so)?

All I'm saying is that there either needs to be a correlation between stat strength and move strength, or stat strength and moves learned, or both. Otherwise, there is a massive gaping hole in the system.

As an aside, I'm only mentioning Retane, again, because he decided to insert himself into this thread.

You also seem to be assuming that there will never be anything else to use TP on, leaving people with the choice of either spending ridiculous amounts on stats or just continually buying best moves. Which will not be the case forever.

I mean... I can't read minds. I'm commenting on the current system. Give me more, and maybe things are different but even if people can spend TP on different things, there's still an issue with the inequity between best move strength and best moves earned.

I understand what you guys are saying, but there's nothing to be gained by forcing people to increase a stat if they want more best moves. What would the purpose of that mechanic be? If the only reason you think it should be that way is because it "makes sense" then I'm going to have to completely disagree.

You disagree with things because "they make sense" O_o...

I'm saying that it keeps people in check and keeps the system balanced. If you aren't going to balance it, then fine. I too will begin to spend all my TP on best moves because stat strength, apparently, has no greater function in the game than a vague IC reference to: "He was faster than me..." or "Wow he has better technique..." If techniques and best moves are entirely independent of stats, that's doable, I just want to know so I don't leave my character at a dramatic disadvantage. I can load up on a bunch of non-max ki related moves aimed at deception and confusion as well, and have nothing to check me.

[Kaden]

Of course there's a correlation between strength and best moves. There always has been. If a Joe, with a PL of 5, and Bob, with a PL of 500, shoot beams at each other, Bob would win. That's how it goes. That's the point of having stats at all.

I didn't realize that connection wasn't obvious.

Additionally, just having a move adds nothing to a character. Raditzu used to have many moves that I never even tried to use. If Retane wants 22 moves, great. Its still up to him to make use of them. There certainly isn't a rule anywhere that says if you're fighting another player you have to use all of their Best Moves and base their strength off of some imaginary scale that has nothing to do with stats.

Even if we did re-implement a mechanic that says "you can only have 1 move for every 50 insight" there's still the same "problem" you're describing. The strength a Best Moves have always been based on stats and will always be based on stats, regardless of whether or not you need another 50 Insight to get another one. What else would you gauge their strength on?

I don't really see how you got from being able to have more best moves to being able to just turn on god mode. A best move is just a technique that is unique (ish) to your character. It doesn't suddenly propel them to higher realms of strength. They're primarily RP fodder. You're welcome to add more to your character, but that doesn't mean you'll be allowed to god mode just because you want to.

I can load up on a bunch of non-max ki related moves aimed at deception and confusion as well, and have nothing to check me.

Again, god moding is never going to be something we allow. Additionally, there's nothing that says your opponent has to use any best moves you have. If you want to work them into a fight, great, but your opponent is more than welcome to turn around and do the exact same thing to you.

You disagree with things because "they make sense" O_o...

That was taken out of context. You want to implement a game mechanic that serves no real purpose in the game. Your justification so far has because it "makes sense" to you and you seem to be operating under some guidelines that state "best moves > anything else." That never has, and never will be, the case.

All the characters on Chubbs have stats. Ergo the things they are capable of are based on stats. Best Moves do not change this. The only thing Best Moves do are give people a premise for their character to be able to do something unique.

We've never allowed people to have best moves like "this makes Jon power up stronger than anyone else in the universe, but is tiring and he gets sad when its done." We don't let people have best moves that are unbalanced or game-breaking (as it were) and we're not going to start.

[Piper Juunanagou]

Me being the one with the most moves slots at the moment... and the one with the most rejected moves... I beleive staff can discern what is right and what is not.

My moves give me more shit to write about...

I have 16 Best Move slots, bucko =o

[Aqua]

Of course there's a correlation between strength and best moves. There always has been. If a Joe, with a PL of 5, and Bob, with a PL of 500, shoot beams at each other, Bob would win. That's how it goes. That's the point of having stats at all.

I didn't realize that connection wasn't obvious.

That is obvious, and I've mentioned as much in this thread:

Otherwise, you get a person who is devoting all their TP to moves and they aren't losing anything in the trade off because 1) there's no limit to how many moves they can have and/ or 2) there is no real limit to the power of these moves aside from the ambiguous idea that (I'm stronger than you, so my blast wins...).

Additionally, just having a move adds nothing to a character. Raditzu used to have many moves that I never even tried to use. If Retane wants 22 moves, great. Its still up to him to make use of them. There certainly isn't a rule anywhere that says if you're fighting another player you have to use all of their Best Moves and base their strength off of some imaginary scale that has nothing to do with stats.

I alos think you are looking at this in terms of blasting power. Yes, with a max ki / best move strength correlation, we can RP in a way that stacking up on moves seems harmless. But if someone is stacking up on moves that don't do damage (like moves that distract, hide, etc.) there is no check or balance on this. It's pretty much an auto-succeed. The use the move and, because stat efficiency has nothing to do with move efficiency, these types of moves can unabated. Ergo, a person who "sacrifices" TP for a ton of these types of moves, sacrifices very little to get an entire arsenal of moves.

Even if we did re-implement a mechanic that says "you can only have 1 move for every 50 insight" there's still the same "problem" you're describing. The strength a Best Moves have always been based on stats and will always be based on stats, regardless of whether or not you need another 50 Insight to get another one. What else would you gauge their strength on?

True, but at least there would be cap to the number of moves. I mentioned that we either need to limit the amount of moves someone can have on a stat (so you don't get a situation like the one I just mentioned) AND/ OR we need to make move strength correlate to stat strength. Personally, I think having both is best but it's VERY complicated to pull off and I don't think it's necessary for the minimalist approach that's conducive with chubbs culture. Simply capping off best move slots, I think, would at least make certain that a character has the ability to use their plethora of moves.

I don't really see how you got from being able to have more best moves to being able to just turn on god mode.

Have you seen Retane RP? No offense Retane... but still...

A best move is just a technique that is unique (ish) to your character. It doesn't suddenly propel them to higher realms of strength. They're primarily RP fodder. You're welcome to add more to your character, but that doesn't mean you'll be allowed to god mode just because you want to.

Think of it this way: We make characters pay zeni for items, right? Why don't we just let everyone have any amount of items that they want? Because items, like best moves, are not just RP fodder. They offer a character a distinctive edge. The difference between paying 10tp for a best move and the price of an item is that the price of an item is proportional to it's worth, while the 10tp per move is not. No matter the power or effectiveness of a best move, it costs 10tp. Also remember that my main concern here is not with attack style moves, but axillary moves that deceive, effect the mind, etc.

Again, god moding is never going to be something we allow. Additionally, there's nothing that says your opponent has to use any best moves you have. If you want to work them into a fight, great, but your opponent is more than welcome to turn around and do the exact same thing to you.

That's great. Let's think about this, I have to spend 12 tp to raise one stat 3 points. Retane's character spends 10tp and gets a new move. What system do we have in place to compare my +3 agility (for example) to his new move? None. The basic point is this, the current cost of best moves is disproportionate to the gain. There's no reason for a stronger character to throw mountains of TP into training to minimally raise their stats, when they can just stack up on moves.

And what I was saying, in terms of me stacking up on best moves, is that if nothing changes, it's in my character's best interest to spend all my TP on moves. Instead of dropping 20tp to raise each stat +1, I can add a move that shrouds the entire area in a darkness that only I can see through and a move that let's me set energy land mines (for example). Which seems like the better trade off to you? Now extrapolate that.

That was taken out of context. You want to implement a game mechanic that serves no real purpose in the game. Your justification so far has because it "makes sense" to you and you seem to be operating under some guidelines that state "best moves > anything else." That never has, and never will be, the case.

That isn't my point at all. I've clarified above.

All the characters on Chubbs have stats. Ergo the things they are capable of are based on stats. Best Moves do not change this. The only thing Best Moves do are give people a premise for their character to be able to do something unique.

What stat does retane rely on when he cloaks the opponent in darkness (I'm sorry if I'm remembering one of his moves wrong, but you get the idea...)? What stat does Aqua rely on to freeze time, or use his baptism technique? There's no stat correlation, and with the current system a character can omit boosting stats and stack up on best moves that do not correlate to max ki (like the one's I've just mentioned).

We've never allowed people to have best moves like "this makes Jon power up stronger than anyone else in the universe, but is tiring and he gets sad when its done." We don't let people have best moves that are unbalanced or game-breaking (as it were) and we're not going to start.

Clearly, no one's going to get away with a best move that's little more than a transformation. That isn't the concern.

[Kaden]

The bottom line, in all of this, is that you think there is a problem and I do not.

If you think that you're better off putting all your TP into getting more best moves, then you're free to do that.

[Mal Nova]

I do take offense to this becuase it seems you are insinuating that I god modded. Show me what I have done thats god moding. Though it's nice to know you read all my stuff. Alot of my moves are allowedbecause I don't God Mod them.

As for my When darkness falls, I just strengthened it and it allows senses to portray... I dont have any intention of bringing back Pressurize, but if you want me to, why not? If you'd like me to, I can point out each intention for each move. He's the Reaper, a mercenary, an assassin, and a nemekian. Four different things, four different strats. Mix them up, I have plenty to write. But I'll admit, like I never denied, that I think anyone can beat anyone. My moves are designed to give me a reason to beat someone at a higher move, and to get out of situations that I can't when... or Rp fodder....well it is all RP Fodder isn't it? And UNless you can show me different, I don't God Mod...

Also! When Darkness Falls... I see two people jacking my move already lol. Guess be fucked if you went up against me with that water attack eh? Which was the attack that actually gave me the idea of Shadow Banket. Butrter limited it... but after the new moves I was allowed to make it stronger. And that doesn't mean there isn't a weakness. KS3 or a Scouter could fix that... lol.. Maybe? I never said it couldnt

I have a time move... sitting on thre shelf... been there a while...

Now that I tinhk of it..I wanna see Aqua and Retane in a bout after the tourny lol If they dont fight each other.... Retane has a move for that time freeze lol

But if you really think my moves can out do someone like Rad, then I'd fight him aswell. I might loose, but it'd be fun. lol

A question though, why was Brianna's move, Love Line denied when it was a bit sronger then Rad's old Life Line move?

[Sage]

The argument is totally baseless.

I don't get it. Honestly. It's not hard to understand. You could have your 'ultimate' attack be weaker than one of my 'lesser' attacks just because my character might have a way higher PL than yours.

Moves are based on PL. While Baptism might be a specialty move, it... doesn't matter. A very fast character could still move through water at an extreme pace. Or, y'know, fly up. And get out of it.

You can have 1,000 moves. At your PL, if you RPed just as good as, for example, Raditzu, you'd still lose. Period.

[Aqua]

Alright, I totally don't know what I'm talking about...

I was just trying to point out a blatant hole that seems to be pretty easy to fix. It wasn't meant to put anyone down.

I'll just spend my TP on "specialty" moves from now on, instead of raising my stats by like 1-5 points...