Counter-picks

[Jonathan Meer]

A place to share thoughts on serious counter-picking. Planning for it to be a full-on compendium, so list both the obvious and the not-so-obvious, along with rationale. The intent is for this to be a constructive way to dismantle the 'There's nothing to do about this champ, he/she is just plain OP' attitude, which is almost always incorrect. It's also an indirect way to have an elaboration on a champ's strengths (the part of a champ that counters another champ) and a champ's weaknesses (the part of a champ that makes them counter-able).

For example:

Nasus is hard-countered by Garen. Garen's early-game damage is insane, and his spin essentially negates Nasus' Wither. Nasus has to buy a significant amount of early armor to stay in lane, which delays his philo and sheen. Until he gets the armor, he can only farm with Spirit Fire.

[Orion]

While it might be strange to put Wukong mid, he's a hard counter against LeBlanc. If she begins her combo, hit your clone. The first attack will still hit but you'll be invisible and she'll be unable to do any burst damage.

[Ashe]

While it might be strange to put Wukong mid, he's a hard counter against LeBlanc. If she begins her combo, hit your clone. The first attack will still hit but you'll be invisible and she'll be unable to do any burst damage.

Similarly, Fizz is very good against him. Given just how quickly most LBs do their combo, you let the first shot hit you and then hope on your pole right after, negating the second shot that would silence you. While that's in the air, they have probably also used her blink right onto melee range of you, again negated and placing them perfect for when you drop off your pole and slow them. Then when they blink back to their circle, you just Q onto her again and throw a couple more hits.

[Mr. Zhu]

A place to share thoughts on serious counter-picking. Planning for it to be a full-on compendium, so list both the obvious and the not-so-obvious, along with rationale. The intent is for this to be a constructive way to dismantle the 'There's nothing to do about this champ, he/she is just plain OP' attitude, which is almost always incorrect. It's also an indirect way to have an elaboration on a champ's strengths (the part of a champ that counters another champ) and a champ's weaknesses (the part of a champ that makes them counter-able).

For example:

Nasus is hard-countered by Garen. Garen's early-game damage is insane, and his spin essentially negates Nasus' Wither. Nasus has to buy a significant amount of early armor to stay in lane, which delays his philo and sheen. Until he gets the armor, he can only farm with Spirit Fire.

Don't mean to be a dick head, but that's wrong.

Garen's is not at all a hard counter to Nasus, because of Nasus's amazing sustain on that 14% lifesteal. Their relationship at top lane at worst I would call it co-existence, at best I would call it Garen waiting to become useless against Nasus. Garen doesn't do enough damage to Nasus at early levels unless he takes ignite as a summoner spell and I argue that Nasus's ult actually counters Garen's ult because of the sudden health increase.

Let me analyze this further for you. As Garen, if you're using your Q and Spin to harass, you automatically push your lane towards Nasus's tower. Last hitting off tower is hilariously easy for Nasus so unless you tower dive, Nasus will get the farm. If I start with boots 3 pots on Nasus or clothe armor 5 pots, good luck trying to get me out of the lane because it won't happen. Also I think you may have misunderstood how Spirit Fire works on Nasus, you don't ever use it to farm... Ever.

It's a known fact that Nasus's only counter is someone with high poke, and eventually these counters will become irrelevant the more the Nasus farms. By the time Nasus is level 13 or 14, no one will be able to push him out of a lane and it's just pure fact. I know this through observation through countless games of playing on Nasus. If you would like to testify this, I would be more than glad to play on Nasus vs your Garen.

Now to contribute to this thread.

Top lane: Pantheon vs GP. Pantheon hard counters GP because of his early game damage and his hilarious passive that basically negates GP's very costly Q. It is almost a guaranteed won lane if you send Pantheon against a GP.

[Jonathan Meer]

Don't mean to be a dick head, but that's wrong.

Garen's is not at all a hard counter to Nasus, because of Nasus's amazing sustain on that 14% lifesteal. Their relationship at top lane at worst I would call it co-existence, at best I would call it Garen waiting to become useless against Nasus. Garen doesn't do enough damage to Nasus at early levels unless he takes ignite as a summoner spell and I argue that Nasus's ult actually counters Garen's ult because of the sudden health increase.

14% lifesteal doesn't mean anything when Nasus is being zoned away from his creeps.

You're talking about level 6. I'm talking about wanton aggression starting at level 2.

Let me analyze this further for you. As Garen, if you're using your Q and Spin to harass, you automatically push your lane towards Nasus's tower. Last hitting off tower is hilariously easy for Nasus so unless you tower dive, Nasus will get the farm. If I start with boots 3 pots on Nasus or clothe armor 5 pots, good luck trying to get me out of the lane because it won't happen. Also I think you may have misunderstood how Spirit Fire works on Nasus, you don't ever use it to farm... Ever.

Good timing/positioning on Q and spin can minimize the pushing effect.

Last-hitting off turret is always disadvantageous. It's easier for him once Q is leveled up a few times. Not so easy in the earlygame.

Cloth Armor + 5 pots would be mandatory against Garen, I'd expect, but even there Nasus is going to get rather torn up by Garen's early damage.

I understand how Spirit Fire works on Nasus. If you have to farm with Spirit Fire, you farm with Spirit Fire. Obviously it's not at all preferable.

It's a known fact that Nasus's only counter is someone with high poke, and eventually these counters will become irrelevant the more the Nasus farms. By the time Nasus is level 13 or 14, no one will be able to push him out of a lane and it's just pure fact. I know this through observation through countless games of playing on Nasus. If you would like to testify this, I would be more than glad to play on Nasus vs your Garen.

I'm not interested in 'arguments' of the form 'It's a known fact.' I'd rather hear the rationale.

The idea behind the Garen counter is that, because Nasus' strength is lategame, earlygame aggression (which Garen excels at) can severely gimp his impact on the game. To say Nasus can't be pushed out of lane at level 13/14 is neither interesting (the laning phase is often long done by that point, and there will be plenty of roaming to put pressure on Nasus' farm), nor relevant to the point behind the counter. Level 13 =/= earlygame.

[Mr. Zhu]

You're talking about level 6. I'm talking about wanton aggression starting at level 2.

Good timing/positioning on Q and spin can minimize the pushing effect.

Last-hitting off turret is always disadvantageous. It's easier for him once Q is leveled up a few times. Not so easy in the early game.

I understand how Spirit Fire works on Nasus. If you have to farm with Spirit Fire, you farm with Spirit Fire. Obviously it's not at all preferable.

The idea behind the Garen counter is that, because Nasus' strength is lategame, earlygame aggression (which Garen excels at) can severely gimp his impact on the game. To say Nasus can't be pushed out of lane at level 13/14 is neither interesting (the laning phase is often long done by that point, and there will be plenty of roaming to put pressure on Nasus' farm), nor relevant to the point behind the counter. Level 13 =/= earlygame.

Level 2 Garen doesn't nearly do enough damage to turn away a Nasus. Just like you said, Good timing/positioning, all you have to do as Nasus is to walk around the creep wave while Garen spins around and the AoE effect WILL push the minion wave towards you. If you start with tank runes and tank masteries (which you will if you know how to play Nasus) Garen's damage output at level 2 is actually quite minimal. If Garen does choose to go out of his way to zone Nasus, he will get destroyed in his own last hitting. And it hurts Garen because his utility runs out as soon as it goes to mid/late game and he becomes rather weak, acting as a meat shield or last hitting important targets with ult. Garen REQUIRES a lot of farm in lane, whereas Nasus can persistently farm after Garen's initial threat has been weathered.

Last-hitting off tower is VERY simple, and it will be improved by more and more practice. I'm at the point where I seldom miss last hits off turret especially with something like Nasus Q.

Spirit Fire is never the option to farm with as Nasus. Say you're getting zoned and the only way to reach creeps is to farm with spirit fire. However that simply pushes the enemy creep lane even further back and you will never get it to come back towards your tower if you continue to do so. Plus it burns mana like its nothing.

Also, Nasus wither is not at all countered by Garen's E.
Example 1: Garen uses Q and silences you, chain to E. You activate wither after silence, he is slowed 50% of what is a ridiculously strong slow. You walk away.
Example 2: Garen uses Q to close distance, you wither him and he activated E. Sure he gets rid off your slow, but his Q damage and speed buff is no longer readily available and E ends up hitting nothing.

Nasus is perfectly equipped early game for sustain because that's the entire concept of his design. His "weak early-game" is merely a myth, you just have to play him according to how the creep wave moves, and it's sometimes advantageous to just miss 1 wave of creep for your creeps to move forward. If you have the right rune page and masteries to supplement your play-style Garen does not have anything to offer that would completely "hard-counter" or shut down Nasus.

[Jonathan Meer]

Level 2 Garen does tons of damage.

It isn't difficult to zone away an enemy champ while simultaneously farming.

Farming at tower is disadvantageous, especially in the early levels, when your attack speed is low and your cooldowns are high.

If you're being zoned away from melee-ing the creeps, it is better to farm with Spirit Fire than to idly sit and wait.

Wither costs 80 mana. Every time Nasus has to use wither on Garen, Garen wins.

14% lifesteal when you're only doing 70 damage-per-strike is about 10 health returned. And every time you step forward to do that, you're getting Q and E'd.

Nasus is weak early game.

[Mr. Zhu]

Level 2 Garen does tons of damage.

It isn't difficult to zone away an enemy champ while simultaneously farming.

Farming at tower is disadvantageous, especially in the early levels, when your attack speed is low and your cooldowns are high.

If you're being zoned away from melee-ing the creeps, it is better to farm with Spirit Fire than to idly sit and wait.

Wither costs 80 mana. Every time Nasus has to use wither on Garen, Garen wins.

14% lifesteal when you're only doing 70 damage-per-strike is about 10 health returned. And every time you step forward to do that, you're getting Q and E'd.

Nasus is weak early game.

lol, k.

Edit: Since I don't see a way of settling this, I wouldn't mind playing a custom game with you 1v1 to see if your argument really works.

[Jonathan Meer]

Problem with that is, I never play Garen, and you're way better at LoL in general than I am. Counter-picking really applies to people of equal strength, who each possess moderate-to-expert knowledge of their respective characters.

That said, bringit =D

[Mr. Zhu]

Problem with that is, I never play Garen, and you're way better at LoL in general than I am. Counter-picking really applies to people of equal strength, who each possess moderate-to-expert knowledge of their respective characters.

That said, bringit =D

Fair enough, one day we shall do this and get it settled!

[John Doe]

You're both wrong. Heimerdinger counters everyone.

[Trygelan]

I have a replay that disagrees.

[Orion]

Are there counter picks to a team with a ranged AD carry paired with a support healer at bot? Because that is a BITCH of a lane to deal with.

[Anzekay]

A ranged AD/support combo that is better than theirs.

:3

[Jarka]

Are there counter picks to a team with a ranged AD carry paired with a support healer at bot? Because that is a BITCH of a lane to deal with.

I really like going Trist for that reason. Tap them with your E any time they've got the healing fuzzies, and you've got one helluva frustrated support. I've also used Fizz that way and been fairly successful due to his ability to escape the harass that follows (he's in my lineup of non-traditional supports that I want to work on). Pretty much anybody with a healing debuff, so when your teammate ganks in a perfect world you can lead with that skill, making the likelihood of success higher even with clutch heals.

Also, Doran's + vamp scepter will help keep your health maintained so you can camp in lane a bit longer.

If your support is a bully support like Alistar or Leona, have them make their healer regret their decision. Anytime a heal goes off, they knock them around a bit.

Other than that, just keep the mindset that it's not going to be worth harrassing and losing CS since they're just going to get healed up. If you've got a brand new wave, go ahead and take a few shots, then focus on last hitting again.

[Josh]

lol, k.

Edit: Since I don't see a way of settling this, I wouldn't mind playing a custom game with you 1v1 to see if your argument really works.

I'll do it, though I agree with your assessment of Nasus vs Garen.

[Ashe]

I'll do it, though I agree with your assessment of Nasus vs Garen.

I agree as well, although I'm not skilled enough with Nasus or Garen to really assist in proving any point. One thing to also keep in mind about his Spirit Fire is that it immediately does a rather substantial armor debuff to those inside its field of influence.

[Jonathan Meer]

20 armor reduction while the person is inside it, plus 1 second after they leave it. That's enough for at most 2 aa's and a siphoning strike. Garen, meanwhile, is spinning in your face.

[Mal Nova]

Nasus owns Garen..... Unless that Garen has that 4k+ health(Who remembers that game from back then? Madreds couldnt even hold a candle to that bitch!<_< But thats late game....

HOWEVER....

Garen COULD be good and quick to silence Nasus every time he goes for a SS, and fuck it up and even mess up his last hitting as well. You have to be really good at this and Naasus can get smart and activate it before (dude it takes a while for it to reach CD if you dont use it) and that fixes that.

Lifesteal... theres something funny that people seem to forget at times... YOU HAVE TO HIT SHIT TO GET IT! Hitting shit= pushing the lane

Garen just needs to stand around and not get hit for 7 seconds and starts healing.

As it's been said though, Garens spin can get countered after activation by Wither. Also... I've been explained Nasus doesn't get Sheen till he is ready to trade blows and push....

So once he has it.... A Garen vs Nasus(with sheen) in a spiritfire trading blows.... Nasus should win.

Of course...Garens are suicidal...

Let them push you to tower and have with and Exhaust waiting for them You can usually kill him or fo tit for tat =D

[Jonathan Meer]

Garen COULD be good and quick to silence Nasus every time he goes for a SS, and fuck it up and even mess up his last hitting as well. You have to be really good at this and Naasus can get smart and activate it before (dude it takes a while for it to reach CD if you dont use it) and that fixes that.

Every time Nasus goes in for cs, he's getting silenced and spin-attacked. Shit hurts.

As it's been said though, Garens spin can get countered after activation by Wither. Also... I've been explained Nasus doesn't get Sheen till he is ready to trade blows and push....

Wither costs 80 mana. If Nasus is planning to Wither Garen every time he goes in for cs, he's spending 100 mana for each cs, and that's not counting any silly Spirit Fires he's planning to throw out.

So once he has it.... A Garen vs Nasus(with sheen) in a spiritfire trading blows.... Nasus should win.

If Garen let's Nasus get Sheen without issue, and if Garen doesn't have plenty of cs in that time, and Garen stands in Spirit Fire that entire time, then yes. Nasus probably wins that.

tl;dr, sure. If Garen is a dumbass and Nasus isn't, Nasus wins.