Happy Birthday America

[Alexander Trafford]

we turned a good thread about America's awesomeness, drinking and fireworks into a quarrel that will accomplish nothing. congratulations chubbs.

[Jonathan Meer]

You can still talk about America's awesomeness, drinking and fireworks. I'm flattered that you think me and Rod are so amazing to effectively dominate a topic, but you shouldn't be so defeatist.

[Celena]

we turned a good thread about America's awesomeness, drinking and fireworks into a quarrel that will accomplish nothing. congratulations chubbs.

More like 'welcome to chubbs'. lol.

[Rem-13]

Nothin more American than bitter pointless squabbles without resolution.

[Kazuya]

You know, some of you people are real buzzkillers.

[Jonathan Meer]

Anyone else want to make a smarmy comment about a particular conversation in this thread? Now is your time.

[Josh]

http://wonkette.com/409650/insane-sarah-...ia-twitter

[Pinky]

A blurb that reveals the intent of at least one major founding father (Thomas Jefferson). Never mind that James Madison often used the very same phrase in his writings, and never mind that the philosopher John Locke can be found all throughout America's late 18th-century governmental documents.

Separation of Church and State isn't something that was magically wafted out of thin air, though it is very easy for people who want to believe that to put together an argument built upon the underemphasis of key points.

You're missing the point. This one founder is being taken out of context and is set against all other religious references from the other founders. For instance, take Washington's inaugural address.

"It would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act,
my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over
the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose
providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction
may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the
United States.No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore
the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the
people of the United States."

Or that Washington was the first president to establish a day of prayer, along with his successor John Adams, and again I'll bring up Jefferson's own approval of using various federal buildings for religious purposes. They had their detractors who complained about it in their day, but the point is that the Establishments clause was not intended to be what so many people claim it is.

Jefferson had slaves too, but we still think all people should be equal. Hypocrisy should not stop us from grasping on to valuable themes.

Jefferson only drafted the Declaration of Independence which Adams was the driving force behind (Adams was remarkably influential despite being marginalized in historical records, being the one who drafted the Massachusetts state constitution as well as his views on government shaping other state constitutions among the original thirteen). Actually, Jefferson wanted Adams to be the one to draft the Declaration, although that didn't happen for several reasons.

To the point of hypocrisy, Adams' thoughts on issues such as slavery were unequivocally that it was wrong, should be abolished, and refused to use the slave labor of others when it was offered. The reasons for his position on the issue was squarely his religion, and although it was a prominent issue of the times he favored unification of the states over pressing his views during the founding.

Huh? How has the free exercise of religion been trashed?

There are certain legal precedents that are rightly within the context of the Establishments clause as the founders and framers intended it (Torcaso v Watkins, Engle v Vitale, Abington School District v Schempp). The first legal case I can cite is US SC 1947's ruling on Everson v Board of Education, which founded its majority opinion on Jefferson's letter without giving it context. This ruling allowed a state school board's reimbursement of transportation of schoolchildren who were being bussed to various schools, including private religious-oriented schools, but the incredibly broad wordage was so poorly defined that it left the gate open for overreaching interpretation of the First amendment in successive cases (Lemon v Kurtzman, Stone v Graham, Wallace v Jaffree) when the Establishments clause was a barrier only against law specifically catering to religion.

I'm fully aware that everyone has a right to vote. I also think that many (can't give an exact percentage, but it'd be at least 10%, and probably not higher than 30%) Americans are morons. Some in this category do not believe evolution occurs, nor would they ever consider voting for an atheist President (even if that individual were far more qualified, intelligent, etc. than the religious alternative).

And, for the record, you're not the only one with a mind of your own. Just because I disagree with you does not mean I am a parrot, or ignorant, or some sort of deviant. Be respectful.

I'd say a lot more people than that are morons, and a lot less base their votes primarily on religion. The reason only Christian politicians ever have a serious shot at the presidency is that politicians are the most petty, fearful people in the country who operate on a don't-rock-the-boat mentality.

Come on Rod. I agree on the over policing on displays of religious affiliation on government and public grounds amoung other things, but that doesn't mean that Christianity does not have this countries neck in a death grip. A few inconsequential laws are passed, and yet there won't be a non-Christian president for a very long time. One congressman wanted to swear himself in on the Qur'an and everyone went apeshit. As with all issues this one is populated by idiots and assholes on all side.

A religious electorate is not a religious government. If religion was the factor behind choosing which people could be elected to office then Ellison wouldn't have been elected in the first place, mang.

[Alexander Trafford]

So on my fourth of july i drank heavily, blew up some festive explosives, and grilled some dead animals.

rock on america.

[Jonathan Meer]

We won't see eye-to-eye.

[Josh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRom1Rz8OA

[Kami]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRom1Rz8OA

The Canadian speaks truth

[Sage]

Man. Washington was awesome.