Importance of Stats - Staff Only

[Belle Hibiki]

I don't have a problem with power-gaming in other venues either. It's just as you said: this system not intended to be viewed that way.

It's like looking at an apple, taking a bite out of it, and saying it's too sweet to be an orange. That's nice and all, but it's still a fucking apple.

[Misa Fujiroka]

Yeah. To be honest, this statemet from the other thread

How effective is Endurance? I think most people have no clue, as there are a bunch of characters with 15% or less in Endurance.

actually sort of offended me. The stats, as far as I know (and I could very well be wrong) are guidelines that help compare the character to other characters. They're not intended to define the character, they're just there to narrow down the vagueness of "Character X is faster than he is strong" to "Character X is faster than Character Y." I didn't give my character low Endurance because I thought it would give me a metagame advantage, I gave my character low Endurance because that's how I saw the character, and thought that's how the stats would portray her.

I'm not here to compete, and I'm not sure anybody really is. This RPG (again, unless I'm mistaken), is about writing and coming up with crazy stories and roleplaying because it's fun. It's not about out-mathing everyone, and it's pointless to try and overanalyze every little number when half the stuff in the game doesn't have numbers to begin with. I really don't like the constant, subtle suggestions that we're somehow ignorant for not demanding a more complicated system; this is really just not that sort of RPG. Stuff like this

The willingness of members here to just lay back and watch the staff play the game has always been a fascinating phenomenon to me. I almost hope you guys never change.

makes me think that you're trying to, and I'm sorry if this sounds wrong, but play the wrong game. There's not alot of secret, underlying mathematics that you're missing. It's based on writing and more writing. That's it. You're not having the wool pulled over your eyes, you're not being intentionally kept from the deep, dark secrets of the system so the mods can win fights, and nothing needs to be complicated further. The stats are guidelines. They're vague on purpose and most people here, I think, like it that way... because that's what this game was about in the first place. It's all over the Rules.

Sorry if I ranted or came off as offensive, but I felt I needed to toss that in there. It just doesn't seem like you're approaching this with the right idea at all, and trying to turn Monoply into Risk.

[Jack]

Belle: I... don't understand that analogy at all.

But I agree. In a fight, the bottom line is roleplay quality. Obviously you can choose abilities that are more "PvP" oriented (MAS as opposed to Mediumship), but those are only there to provide everyone a unique character. Stats are guidelines to how your character fights, NOT mathematical tools to fanagle the outcome you want.

[Ashe]

trying to turn Monoply into Risk.

Good analogy.

[Juno]

Amen to everything Misa said.

EDIT: And for reference, Misa, we did once have a complicated system with mathematics crammed all into it, which is why we're trying to be vague now. Apparently, Rod wishes us to regress back into complicated "game playing."

[Kaden]

Hey Rod, if you just want me to lock this, lemme know.

[Pinky]

You are asking if you can TKO your opponent with a single punch if your strength is higher than there's, regardless of CA. I think that takes oversimplification to a much higher level that what we have done.

The pvp elements of this game are NOT intended to involve calculators nor is it "who progressed the story to happen to force the ranged character into melee combat first".

I'm not saying everything is ironed out perfectly, but you keep insisting that everyone stop what they are doing and rebuild the system under your vision. This system was created by a large group of the members of the rpg, and you've so far analyzed every bit of it and insisted that its horrible and needs to be corrected under your own suggestions, and I just don't see where its that much a problem.

For example, if I see the following:

CA - 500
Strength: 30%
Focus: 40%
Endurance: 10%
Agility: 20%

vs

CA- 500
Strength: 10%
Focus: 40%
Endurance: 30%
Agility: 20%

I would call those evenly matched. I'm sure that you'll disagree and have formulaic proof that the guy with 10% endurance loses by default if the guy with 40% focus writes something like "My Kamehameha strikes you dead on", but I completely disagree there.

Your example characters are as identical as possible without literally being carbon copies: it's pretty poor proof of the balance of the system. What I'm wondering is what happens between two substantially different characters, one dumping % into Focus and the other spreading % across the three physical stats.

I've been told so far that Endurance's defensive property reduces a received attack's power by less than a 1%-1% factor against attacks, which implies that it's not as good a stat as the numbers would suggest, so it would seem to me that anybody with less than 40% Endurance would be devastated by a major attack from 80% Focus.

I've been told that the speed of attacking with ki and the flying speed of a ranged ki attacks is based on Focus, so a character with less than 40% Agility lacks the capacity to dodge a major attack from 80% Focus. I'd like to know how a character with 40% Agility or less makes it within melee range before being ki'ed to pieces.

40% Endurance/Agility makes 80%, so that leaves 19% to Strength (1% having to be reserved for Focus) and it's already law that Focus also supplies power to defensive ki techs like barriers -- which is further complicated by concepts like Rad's ki barrier that shoves opposing characters out of melee range. The balancing factor between Focus and the three physical stats is supposed to be stamina, which I would assume is based on total CA although nobody has said as much so it could very well be otherwise, as well as potential Focus/Endurance damage ratios which wasn't answered when I raised the question in the other thread. Pile on top of that, that the stats definitions found in the RULES forum are either incomplete or just wrong, which is why I'm raising questions in the first place.

But, according to you, it doesn't matter because it's all peripheral anyway, so when rulings come down from the staff that supersede or contradict the written rules there's no room for questions or complaints.

[Vad]

Alright Hardwood, I am going to attempt to make some sense on our Stat system for you. Perfect and true to the point? It means basically nothing.

It is not for us the players to be concerned about. It is a tiny little guideline that the staff takes into consideration when grading a post, be it any kind.

There is NO MATH involved. We just took a 100% figure and split it four ways. No big math involved to figure out why we did that.

Combat Ability it calculated by a math forumla based on the forum's add-on to store XP upon an IC post. It is most likely a vBscript running that, with the math already done. All the staff does is either tell it to deduct from your 'bank account'. And if they need to reverse it, they use a vBscript to send/take a predetermined XP amount.

Waffle may interject to some of this, but this is what I see in my head. I've done stuff like this for forums, but I know not of what exactly takes place. I'm trying to share with you, what they might be doing.

Anyway. Stats? Worthless. Like someone said in the thread earlier. It's for our gain, and our coolness factor. Makes us feel better about ourselves.

Going back to my point? Our stats are basically hidden. In the sense that CA is our only true stat, and has either most or alot of effect on outcomes. (Don't forget Traits and what not.) So if your CA is 500, and mine is 1000, your going to be at a disadvantage. And you won't win most likely.

I can't begin to fathom to you my countless angles on this. The staff could have a random chance indicator, where you could possibly win a fight of that magnitude. Who knows?

From my four years on this site, Ive seen a couple grading techniques used by our lovely staff members. Most of them have been combined to form an opinion. Then just a reasonable reward. I mean there could be a chart. But I couldn't tell if ya. I don't know. They could have slaves in that thread of theirs doing this for them. Who knows.

What I am trying to say is that, you need to ignore the percentages. For the sake of causing confusion and over thinking this entire thing by a mile.

On another note? I could be entirely wrong. And I understand if I am.

[Pinky]

How did I miss all of these others posts... >_>

Amen to everything Misa said.

EDIT: And for reference, Misa, we did once have a complicated system with mathematics crammed all into it, which is why we're trying to be vague now. Apparently, Rod wishes us to regress back into complicated "game playing."

The system is not as vague as advertised: being more vague than the old system is not "vague" in an absolute sense. I'm sure the intent was a shift towards vagary, but numbers impart complexity. I'm looking for where the line is drawn. If you don't care then fine, nobody is holding a gun to your head and demanding you read everything posted on the forum.

What was provided in the RULES forum was half-baked nonsense. My balking at it was justified because it turns out that the rules, at least concerning stats which is the center of my contention, were far from being properly defined, and still are a far cry from what would satisfy my curiosity. Again, I'm going to say the trend around here of shouting down dissent would be sad if it wasn't so fascinating.

Hey Rod, if you just want me to lock this, lemme know.

Nah, being in a minority = unpopular. I've come to grips with this. 8DX

[Kaden]

I've been told that the speed of attacking with ki and the flying speed of a ranged ki attacks is based on Focus, so a character with less than 40% Agility lacks the capacity to dodge a major attack from 80% Focus. I'd like to know how a character with 40% Agility or less makes it within melee range before being ki'ed to pieces.

Just wanted to point out that this train of logic doesn't take into account the fact that the person with 80% ki has to actually aim their attack. I'm going to use Kaden and Alexandra as examples of his. Alexandra can easily move faster than Kaden can follow; additionally, Lex can see Kaden preparing a blast much more readily than Kaden would be able to do something as simple as thrust his arm forward. Before the attack even launches, she has the speed advantage. Assuming Kaden attacked with a full force/speed ki attack, Lex would have to be at a standstill to completely lose her advantage.

In Naruto, Sasuke could use Illusion and Ninja techniques, and had his bullshit Sharingan, but Rock Lee still owned his ass the first time they met. Statistically, Sasuke shouldn't have been in any danger whatsoever. That wasn't the case, though.

The point is that there are still "human" elements to the characters that common sense should dictate. CA being equal, if Kaden and Alexandra fight, Lex will use her speed to her advantage and Kaden will struggle with his lack of speed and strength, despite his high focus. RPing it any other way would just be god-moding.

[Ander]

There is no one stat that is superior to the other. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. You can choose to be good at one or two things, or take a balanced approach. You can have a cranked up Strength percentage, but if your Endurance percentage is low, then you can kick someone twice around the block, but you'll also be vulnerable to attacks yourself. If you reverse that, you can withstand a lot of damage, but you can't dish it out. You can be really good at something, but that will generally leave you weak in another area. It's about your preference of how you want your character to fight versus trying to pick the stat that's king. Kaden also listed a good example of Agility and Focus applications. If you choose to take a balanced approach, then you're averaging out your skills. It would be a little like being a three sport athlete. You can really excel at football (American football), and be not so good at soccer or baseball. Or, if you're balanced, then you're competent at all three sports, but not a superstar at any single one of them.

There's no formulaic equations involved. They're guidelines. Each stat is given a simple and succinct explanation as to their general application, and based on how a player likes to have their character fight (attack, defense, or speed), they choose to split their CA accordingly. The percentages define what your Combat Ability is based in. If you have 50% Agility, then fifty percent of your Combat Ability is centered on being a speed freak. If your problem is that there's no specific definition of "I have 50% Strength and they have 50% Focus, that means I can do 1,562 points of damage to their Hit Points, RAAHHH," then sorry, but we just don't have that. Strength is not inherently better than Focus, and vice versa.

What exactly about the stat rules is "half-baked nonsense"? Be specific.

[Pinky]

Just wanted to point out that this train of logic doesn't take into account the fact that the person with 80% ki has to actually aim their attack. I'm going to use Kaden and Alexandra as examples of his. Alexandra can easily move faster than Kaden can follow; additionally, Lex can see Kaden preparing a blast much more readily than Kaden would be able to do something as simple as thrust his arm forward. Before the attack even launches, she has the speed advantage. Assuming Kaden attacked with a full force/speed ki attack, Lex would have to be at a standstill to completely lose her advantage.

In Naruto, Sasuke could use Illusion and Ninja techniques, and had his bullshit Sharingan, but Rock Lee still owned his ass the first time they met. Statistically, Sasuke shouldn't have been in any danger whatsoever. That wasn't the case, though.

The point is that there are still "human" elements to the characters that common sense should dictate. CA being equal, if Kaden and Alexandra fight, Lex will use her speed to her advantage and Kaden will struggle with his lack of speed and strength, despite his high focus. RPing it any other way would just be god-moding.

Okay, this is a step forward. This is actual proof that I can cite that one stat doesn't beat all, and not just some vague claim of the notion.

Now, the next question on my list (which I do have :B).

The character you cited, Alexandria, has 60% Agility. Most characters are nowhere near that, which is why my examples are always about a character that has 40% Agility (the actual average Agility is approx. 26.5%, but I digress). Despite claims to the contrary, your answer leads me to believe that specializing in one stat is the best way to par another specialist, which implies that not all stat distributions are equal. Where does this leave the jack-of-all-stats characters, the ones whose best stat(s) is merely hovering around the 40th percentile? Their strikes are nominal, their ki blasts are mediocre, their durability is so-so, and they move at an average speed. It seems to me that they are inferior by default since they can't can't respond to overwhelming authority with overwhelming authority.

[Pinky]

To qualify the term "specializing": if your best stat is at least 3x your 2nd best stat.

[Belle Hibiki]

They mitigate the advantage the other has. Someone with 25% Agility fighting Alexandra will probably have a helluva lot easier time dealing with her speed than someone like Hibiki, who has 7% Agi.

[Kaden]

Okay, this is a step forward. This is actual proof that I can cite that one stat doesn't beat all, and not just some vague claim of the notion.

I would've mentioned that earlier, but I didn't actually think about it until I was sitting down to write a fight scene.

Someone who forgoes a specialty in favor of balance definitely won't be able to answer overwhelming force with overwhelming force. What they will be able to do, though, is possess a versatility that their opponent does not.

Being a specialist is situational. Let's say Kaden and Alexandra are fighting in a narrow corridor. I'd have to give Kaden the advantage in that situation, since Lex's speed is limited by their surroundings. If they're fighting a big, open field, the situation is pretty much reversed.

That's why, for Kaden, I created Custom Techs like Reject and Break. Kaden has to try and work the situation to his advantage so that he can make the most of his strengths and try to cover for his weaknesses.

A rounded character doesn't need to "work" a situation so hard. They're free to use Custom Techs to create their own strengths without having to worry nearly as much about defending their weaknesses.

[Pinky]

A rounded character doesn't need to "work" a situation so hard. They're free to use Custom Techs to create their own strengths without having to worry nearly as much about defending their weaknesses.

My point is that the lack of a specialty *is* a weakness. Of course a specialist can be twisted to cover different bases, but when there is no specialty there is nothing to abuse. My first thought was to focus on abusing my character's skillset rather than stats and to use ability/tech combos to alter stats, but then I was told that was illegal. :|

[Super Buu]

Nothing to abuse, but way more options. A character who heavily specialises in focus doesn't really have the option of going hand-to-hand. An all-rounder like Rose can do whatever the situation merits. If she's fighting a melee dude, she can fire ki attacks from range where he can't reach her; if they do get into melee (which is almost inevitable) she won't get as destroyed as a character who'd ignored their Strength entirely.

Not to mention that, unless the enemy has inner strength, she'll usually have 2 if not 3 stats which are higher than the other opponent's. Sure your strength is way higher than mine, but my focus and agility and endurance are higher than yours, if not by a whole lot. My advantages aren't as big, but I have more of them. There's really no way to be gimped in this system.

[Ashe]

No offense to anyone in this thread, but I'm going to make this "Staff Only" now. To prevent further confusion or disagreement, it'd probably be best to allow the two admins and Rod to speak between themselves.

[Kaden]

Now what fun is that?

[Pinky]

I'll just reply to this and expect some staff will reply to my response. >_>

Nothing to abuse, but way more options. A character who heavily specialises in focus doesn't really have the option of going hand-to-hand. An all-rounder like Rose can do whatever the situation merits. If she's fighting a melee dude, she can fire ki attacks from range where he can't reach her; if they do get into melee (which is almost inevitable) she won't get as destroyed as a character who'd ignored their Strength entirely.

Not to mention that, unless the enemy has inner strength, she'll usually have 2 if not 3 stats which are higher than the other opponent's. Sure your strength is way higher than mine, but my focus and agility and endurance are higher than yours, if not by a whole lot. My advantages aren't as big, but I have more of them. There's really no way to be gimped in this system.

This is what I keep hearing, but I don't see how it's actually possible.

With Rad's example, the way to beat super Focus was a different super stat (specifically, Agility to dodge). People keep posting "balance is equal to specializing" but nobody has come up with substantial proof of concept. All the potential in the universe is only worth what you can make of it. :|

Against a more evenly-balanced character, who can't dodge so well and can't shrug off a major attack, or can't respond with an equally powerful ki blast and lacks incredible Strength so that it's not even possible to pervert it into a functional defense/counter, the situation is geared towards the specialist. Again, my method was to try and alter stats by some margin: since no stat is really in the dumps, it doesn't seem likely that pushing it higher would break the character.

Using my character as an example:
20 Strength
40 Focus
35 Endurance
20 Agility

Imagine a tech that combines various abilities/techs to impart a bonus 30 Agility to movement to make a total of 50 Agility for purposes of moving (resulting in x2.5 movement, equivalent of Kaioken1 on one aspect of one stat), with Endurance absorbing negative stress on the character's body for short bursts.

On the other hand, using the Kaden character:
5 Strength
80 Focus
10 Endurance
5 Agility

Imagine some sort of ki-effect that launches the character at increased speeds. The tech only adds a bonus 15 Agility for a total of 20 Agility (x4 movement, equivalent of Power-Up3). Although the bonus is half that of the tech described in the example above it's still multiplying the character's stat by a higher degree so the stress is worse, and with low Endurance the negative effect is also worse. So, it turns out that stat-modding is a very bad idea for the specialist.

The advantage of the "specialist" would be their abusing their chosen stat to make techs, while a "balanced" character would abusing techs to mod stats. Now, if there's a better idea out there then I'd like to hear it.