The Like/Hate thread (WoW)

[Kazuya]

Rogue's are easily taken down. If they're good at the class, yes, you're going to have a lot of trouble.

I'm a bitch to take down.

My druid kicks all kinds of ass. I bet i can take you. <3

[Jesper]

Should I bother picking up this game for the first (official) time?

[Ashe]

Should I bother picking up this game for the first (official) time?

Wait till the expansion comes out if you are just starting. They'll be reworking the entire world (a massive earthshattering will happen, so to speak) and recreating all the quests.

[Vad]

My druid kicks all kinds of ass. I bet i can take you. <3

I can destroy you! BRING IT!

[Milk Bubble]

Rogue's are easily taken down. If they're good at the class, yes, you're going to have a lot of trouble.

I'm a bitch to take down.

Lol stealth ambush (maybe eviscerate) yr dead, vanish lol you can't see me anymore run away, rinse, repeat, lol I rock at this game.

^ Basic gist of being a rogue nowadays.

[Vad]

Lol stealth ambush (maybe eviscerate) yr dead, vanish lol you can't see me anymore run away, rinse, repeat, lol I rock at this game.

^ Basic gist of being a rogue nowadays.

Yes and Paladins, Boomkins, Warriors, Warlocks, and Disc Priests are any different?

The rogue loses 1 on 1 to every class. How they are currently built, Blizzard has designed them to work in a group. The Rogue has control like a mage to keep the healer busy while you take out DPS, or do the exact reverse. In an Arena team you design it around the Rogue.

While the rotation seems easy, I remember you disliking the rogue for it's complexity; and timing is whole different ballpark when it comes to PvP. Not just for Rogues.

[Ashe]

Lol stealth ambush (maybe eviscerate) yr dead, vanish lol you can't see me anymore run away, rinse, repeat, lol I rock at this game.

^ Basic gist of being a rogue nowadays.

Nowadays? This is how they were destroying my ass in vanilla too. Its part of the original concept of being able to come out of the shadows, assassinate someone, then fade back with no repercussions from teammates because you can't find them.

Yes and Paladins, Boomkins, Warriors, Warlocks, and Disc Priests are any different?

The rogue loses 1 on 1 to every class. How they are currently built, Blizzard has designed them to work in a group. The Rogue has control like a mage to keep the healer busy while you take out DPS, or do the exact reverse. In an Arena team you design it around the Rogue.

While the rotation seems easy, I remember you disliking the rogue for it's complexity; and timing is whole different ballpark when it comes to PvP. Not just for Rogues.

While I agree with the arena stuff, this is the first time I've seen someone try to argue that a rogue loses 1 on 1 against every class. Plate classes? Sure, I'll accept that, they are supposed to beat rogues (though rogues got a lot of tools in the last expac to deal with that sort of stuff).

Its actually a tough claim to make for either side.

Plate armor wearers were supposed to be able to mitigate most of the rogue's white damage and smash them. Then they were doing it so well that rogue's needed Evasion to increase their own survivability against these large hits. Then the other side couldn't hit this ghost so they are like "OVERPOWER PROCS!" Rogues need help now, so they start doing some Disarm action. Plate classes go get chains for their weapons. Rogues then get that shield removing move. And the cycle continues.

Rogues were destroying warlocks all day and night. Locks learn improved Death Coil that does more than a nuke drain life. Rogues end up perma feared and dead, so they learn some Cloak of Shadows and Shadowstep maneuvering. Warlocks can't get the rogues off them to stop that stunlock bs, so they get Demonic Circle to teleport to - if they can ever move while stunned. I'm not sure where its progressed by this point.

Mages were kiting rogues all over but then they got CoS and ShS, etc.

So really, there have been times the argument that "Rogues are destroyed 1v1" has made sense (in some class contexts) while they've also been known as the complete 1v1 annihilator. Warlocks have shared that role with them, in that they were "the best 1v1 duel class" all through BC with SLSL (since 90% of the classes had a Fear Immunity button). Then they had their mushroom phases.

[Ashe]

They're going to keep creating wings Utgarde Keep and Utgarde Pinnacle cited as an example of a successful split. They're similar dungeons thematically, but if players had to tackle them both together they'd be pretty arduous.
Mr. Mercer had an amusing phrase for the whole venture: "I did a pass through all the older dungeons, and we're doing what I call Cutting Out The Suck."
Graveyards are more convenient No more nightmare 10-minute runs back from a distant graveyard to the depths of a dungeon.
They're expecting a lot of new players in Cataclysm and they don't want older dungeons to be a roadblock. "We don't want dungeons to be left behind in the redo, we want them to be up-to-par with everything else." Dungeon sections with pointless trash will be trimmed. They should be "Easier for players to understand (and) easier to navigate."
Dungeons that are confirmed "fixes" so far Uldaman, Maraudon, Sunken Temple, Wailing Caverns and Blackrock Depths.
Uldaman overhauls The dungeon is being split into two separate wings. Ironaya will be final boss of the first portion of Uldaman; they felt that the epic feel of assembling the staff and opening her room would be a good ending. The latter portion of Uldaman will be accessed through the existing back-door entrance.
Maraudon overhauls Like Uldaman, it's being split into two: The "living" section and the elemental portion with the Princess.
Sunken Temple overhauls One of the floors will be cut completely, although this is a change that will ship with Cataclysm rather than with patch 4.1
Wailing Caverns overhauls "Almost every boss has its own room now." Confusing portions have been cut.
Blackrock Depths overhauls Teleporters added!

[Majicka]

I just crit my friend who has 1.4k resilience for 20k with my arcane mage.

I'm the new ret pally, baby.

Edit: Ah, the power of Blizzcon is in the air.

Also, the Worgen cinematic was lame. The goblin was amazing.

Goblin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_ymovTFCsQ

Worgen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwlfJmuY1GI

[Milk Bubble]

Yes and Paladins, Boomkins, Warriors, Warlocks, and Disc Priests are any different?

The rogue loses 1 on 1 to every class. How they are currently built, Blizzard has designed them to work in a group. The Rogue has control like a mage to keep the healer busy while you take out DPS, or do the exact reverse. In an Arena team you design it around the Rogue.

While the rotation seems easy, I remember you disliking the rogue for it's complexity; and timing is whole different ballpark when it comes to PvP. Not just for Rogues.

I'm talking about low level rogues to about level 70. I rolled one just to see what it's like. I was a level 11 rogue, Sub spec. All I have to do is stealth, shadowstep, ambush, and then run. It is a guaranteed one shot, even against people who were like level 15, regardless of what their gear was (mail, cloth, leather). That is not right. I could see if it was like how it was before, where you get stunlocked and you have a 1 second window to use a fear/blink/whatever to escape, atleast you had SOME chance of maybe escaping. You could strategize and have time. But you can't do shit about a guaranteed one shot. Seriously, right now go roll a rogue, as soon as you hit level 10 spec Sub, and queue for a battleground.

[Vad]

I'm talking about low level rogues to about level 70. I rolled one just to see what it's like. I was a level 11 rogue, Sub spec. All I have to do is stealth, shadowstep, ambush, and then run. It is a guaranteed one shot, even against people who were like level 15, regardless of what their gear was (mail, cloth, leather). That is not right. I could see if it was like how it was before, where you get stunlocked and you have a 1 second window to use a fear/blink/whatever to escape, atleast you had SOME chance of maybe escaping. You could strategize and have time. But you can't do shit about a guaranteed one shot. Seriously, right now go roll a rogue, as soon as you hit level 10 spec Sub, and queue for a battleground.

I'm a level 80 Rogue and it's a completely different game because of a stat called resilience.

[Majicka]

I'm a level 80 Rogue and it's a completely different game because of a stat called resilience.

qft. Saying you know how to play a rogue and know how they are, but then saying you have a level 11 one is hilarious.

[Ashe]

Ok, I do have to stand on their side on this, Milk Bubble. We all know, and the developer's have confirmed, that rogues are retardedly obliterating people right now. This is something to expect every single pre-expac patch because the numbers haven't been adjusted for anything below 85 yet. THEY WILL BE, and they've said so themselves. They DO go back and fix the lower level stuff because they do NOT want to put out CAT, focus on low level leveling, and then have some crazy experience where Rets and rogues just run around blowing up people ten levels above them like they do now. The problem is that there is no point in making small nerfs to the levels below 85 until they actually finish adjusting 85, because then they may find they need to do an adjustment that hits all levels across the board (meaning they then have to undo each specific nerf from before to make it right).

This current game imbalance is noted, expected, and will be fixed. All people can do is just deal with it until then. People are looking at something that's going to be going on for about three more months or so, noting the two weeks or whatever that its been out, and going "OMG THIS GAME IS RUINED ROGUES ARE SO OP PLZ NERF".

---

That side point made, one thing I would like to remind people of is that classes play very differently at top level than they do leveling. You can NEVER expect to be taken seriously if you say things like "Don't believe Warlocks are op? I rolled one just the other day and at level 4 was dueling people that were level 8 and never lost a single time!" or "Rogues are op because I just rolled one, hit 11, and destroyed people in bgs!" because of too many reasons. One, you may be fighting people who are brand freakin' new to the game. Two, numbers are off for lower levels right now. Three, game mechanics change over the course of leveling as classes get new abilities and talents. Four, classes will play entirely differently at level cap than they do lower levels, especially when gear and things like resiliency are brought into the picture.

I can't stress this point enough.

Emily, what you are saying is the equivalence of arguing with someone that Quantum Physics isn't hard because you've just started the 11th grade and you don't find Pre-Calculus to be as difficult as people in your school say it is. This isn't meant to be mean, but I just want to make this point as clear as I can.

And again, yes, I know that right now, at this moment when every single class is getting severe changes (casters are getting a lot of hotfix nerfs right now for massive crits that are happening, and Destro Locks are getting Searing Pain hotfix nerfs because they found that with current numbers their best dps is to simply spam Searing Pain all fight), every single class has massive imbalances and that yes, right now, rogues are dominating every low level bg (just like burst classes always do in the time period that people do not have resilience, such as the first season of arenas each expansion when people claim burst is op yet by the last season its hots and dots that are op).

Also, by sheer coincidence, resilience was also just nerfed to no longer reduce chance to be crit. I wonder if that would mean rogues and bursty classes would now crit more and hit harder till the newer pvp gear comes out?

[Majicka]

I didn't mean to offend, I just thought it was silly.

I think hunters are easy, but considering I've only played one up to 34, I can't justify that they are easy.

To be fair though, Vad is a rogue. So I say they should be nerfed to the ground. Also, get rid of duel wield. Let them only use two handed maces.

[Waffuru]

Everyone should start at max level because apparently none of the rest of the game matters.

[Ashe]

Everyone should start at max level because apparently none of the rest of the game matters.

Its not that. Its that the argument is that by max level classes change so much and have lots of new abilities and this changes how effective they are in situations. Just like LoL where some guys steamroll people before getting geared and some guys suck until geared when they become forces of nature (Corki).

[Vad]

Everyone should start at max level because apparently none of the rest of the game matters.

i c wut u did thar

[Waffuru]

Its not that. Its that the argument is that by max level classes change so much and have lots of new abilities and this changes how effective they are in situations. Just like LoL where some guys steamroll people before getting geared and some guys suck until geared when they become forces of nature (Corki).

But no one in LoL really changes their playstyle as they get geared. I think it's stupid to have such a high level cap and then change the classes so much that everything you learned while grinding is pointless. The process of getting to max level earns you nothing along the way. It makes for an exceedingly frustrating grind.

If the whole game is the raiding/endgame (which people ALWAYS claim) then why make people waste all the hours getting to that point? This is the problem with a game that is too end-focused, the rest of it is worth nothing but lore. They're trying to improve the leveling experience because it's so outta whack now but the game is still so end focused that people will just blow by all the new content as fast as they can to get to the end.

game design fail imo

[Ashe]

A lot of that also comes from the type of people that subscribe and decide the success or failure of these games today. Too many people that don't actually care about experiencing content because they have an ego to stroke or then there is the other people who've done the content and enjoyed it but are on alt number four or five, meaning they now just want to run some high end stuff on their new alt.

And yeah, I'd love to see an MMO where they didn't make everyone grind through 40+ levels first. I get why they do it (both sides - the part about slowing down your experience of the content so they can have time to work on stuff and the part about you not being overwhelmed with these classes full of abilities with no idea how to use them).

And part of WHY people play so differently in end game and don't learn their abilities in WoW has to do with how easy the leveling is. You don't have to learn your character a damn bit to get your way to cap. If it was something like EQ where you actually lost levels for deaths, the people rushing would have quit, but you'd also have the people playing a lot more careful about what they do and they aren't leveling so fast that they can just "grab three levels THEN go finish the hard quest that they can now brute force through". While I'm absolutely glad of the direction they've gone from those days, there's a mixed blessing and there are things they sacrificed (such as how no one explores zones anymore like they did back then because you don't stay in one place long and everything is so well documented).

[Kaden]

I completely agree with Waff.