=|

[John Doe]

I'm actually thinking it wouldn't, because he stated (well, maybe I stated) that No-Lynch was the same as not voting at all. So you either voted for somebody or you didn't, none of that "vote to not vote" bullhonkey. Most likely Rose just forgetting to remove that part from Meer's quote, when days ended as soon as a majority was reached. Answering my own questions ftw.

[Ashe]

So, if a majority voted "No-Lynch", would you have let the shit-starter do his thing, Rose?

That's the only thing I'm curious about.

Just to total it for further commentary...

Day 1 - 9 No Lynch votes (Sig, Shou, Doe, Jarka, Meer, Celena, Teemer, Raf, Ashe)
4 Absent Votes (Leo, Whompt, Sophia, Rem)
3 John Doe votes (Cringle, Piper, Waffuru)
1 Kami vote (Kaden)
1 Jarka vote (Kami)

[Ashe]

I'm actually thinking it wouldn't, because he stated (well, maybe I stated) that No-Lynch was the same as not voting at all. So you either voted for somebody or you didn't, none of that "vote to not vote" bullhonkey. Most likely Rose just forgetting to remove that part from Meer's quote, when days ended as soon as a majority was reached. Answering my own questions ftw.

I didn't read "No Lynch" as a vote of "Don't care" or "Voting to not vote", but as me actively stating I prefer not to Lynch. /shrug

Regarding your question, I was told that a majority vote had not been reached on either day, whereas the "No Lynch" votes were 50% before including the absent votes. So I assume that anything other that someone's specific name appearing 9 or 10 times would be a fail vote of no majority. A majority vote of "No Lynch" was not a majority capable vote.

EDIT: So yes, if the majority votes "No Lynch", the shit-starter's power is considered active.

[Kami]

This is the PM I got from Rose

You are the Shit Stirrer, a townsperson. At any time during the day phase, you may PM me the name of one person. If no majority lynch is reached by the end of the phase, the person you nominated will get lynched regardless of votes.

That was my role. I guessed Doe was mafia, then I guessed Ashe was mafia. I got lucky, nobody made a majority vote for any one person, not a person with the most votes, but the set majority vote, and so my power came into play. I also was trying to make sure whoever I picked had at least one vote on them so that I could screw with everyone's head about how it worked. Apparently it worked so well that Meer cried and quit and now the game is broken and over.

[Celena]

Seems everything was legit then. Shit Stirrer's got to be the most badass role.

[Kaden]

I'm not mafia.

Seems everything was legit then. Shit Stirrer's got to be the most badass role.

No kidding.

You sound really pissed, Meer.

I was the bodyguard. I could choose to guard someone and if they got mafia'd I'd die instead of them.

Can't say I'm not disappointed that this game didn't continue. Between there being so few mafia and Kami's power, I think mafia would have had a relatively easy win.

[Ashe]

Shou totally would have soloed that.

[Kaden]

I absolutely think Kami would have started getting townies lynched. His luck was phenomenal.

Add onto that the fact that it only works when no one receives a majority lynching and it would have really stopped being a relevant ability. My ability was to actively try and die and the doctor had been taken out on day 1.

Some careful play could have gotten it done pretty easily.

[Kole T. Merr]

Even if "No Lynch" was a separate vote from not voting, 9/18 is not a majority for the purpose of the game. Majority is more than 50%, and 9/18 is technically not more than 50%. Just saying.

I was a townsperson. I'm disappointed that the game turned out this way. I'm a little sad that my suspicions of Kaden and Sigfried turned out to be unwarranted. But this was fun, and I'd love to do it again.

[Super Buu]

I absolutely think Kami would have started getting townies lynched. His luck was phenomenal.

Add onto that the fact that it only works when no one receives a majority lynching and it would have really stopped being a relevant ability. My ability was to actively try and die and the doctor had been taken out on day 1.

Some careful play could have gotten it done pretty easily.

^This is why I'm disappointed.

'No lynch' is just something people started doing, if you look back to the first day then there's a discussion about whether it's still even valid with the 24 hours rule. I clarified on the first page of day 2 that indeed, gameplay-wise, it was the same as not voting.

I felt insulted not because your preference was against that, Ashe, but because by you and Meer the general assumption seemed to be that things were going badly because I didn't know better than to create an entirely unbalanced game. Without even knowing the roles, you both assumed the 'shit stirrer' had the power to override votes and such with absolutely no limitations. I got a constant 'this is dumb' attitude, maybe less from you and more from Meer. In retrospect, I realise you just misinterpreted the rules, so I'm sorry for that.

In actuality, the Shit Stirrer had a much greater likelihood of being a hindrance than a help. We just hit really colossally bad luck. There were other 'bogus' roles in the townspeople besides this one, with potential ways to fuck people over. I actually expected people to start lynching in order to AVOID having their choice made for them by the shit-stirrer, which adds another little twist to the game. Revealing that changes the balance of the game, so next game will have to be changed.

[Ashe]

It may appear the exact same to many people, but I read the two following statements very differently, depending on the understanding of the rules.

1. Not voting has the same effect as voting No Lynch.
2. Voting No Lynch has the same effect as not voting.

It varies depending on whether the mechanic being adjusted becomes a passive stance of carrying zero weight (not voting) or an active stance as a preventive measure (Not to lynch).

So Teemer, when using my examples, I do realize that 9/18 is exactly 50% and therefore not more than a majority. When read with the thought that "All absent votes will also be considered votes to not lynch", it changes that to a majority vote by adding to them.

It ultimately doesn't matter. I'm likely the only person that focuses that much on phrasing and word use to the point of differentiating those phrases that seem like reflexive properties of one another, ultimately leading to a misunderstanding that is so (apparently) odd that I unfortunately couldn't get it cleared up in time to do much about it.

Rose: I actually did state that I knew you had put a lot of effort into balancing it and that I know you meant well and that I simply still felt that despite the precautions, the mechanic was not playing out as intended. When I commented on "overriding votes", it was in reference to my earlier post about how (when assuming a No Lynch vote was an active stance with weight to it to disable Lynching - which was not actually a mechanic but I misunderstood it to be by my interpretation) a majority could vote to Not Lynch someone and then have the Shit Stirrer just Lynch for them anyway. In the context of "No Lynch is the absence of a vote rather than being a vote itself", its an entirely different situation as it would work exactly as complained about, whereas in the context of "The group can choose to not lynch that day" as the understanding, the Shit Stirrer is overriding it and deciding the group's fate for them. Just to really clarify it. It essentially all comes down to those mechanics having entirely different perspectives over such a minor contextual change, at least to ... well, I won't even go as far as to say some, but at least to me.

I really was trying to avoid any actual anger going through while still conveying the sheer frustration of the issue, as it had the feel of repeatedly going to the teacher to make sure you understood exactly how something worked and getting reassured and then when you finally sit down on the exam, you fail it by a fundamental core flaw in your entire understanding of the exam's subject, despite being uncertain about that exact situation the entire time. I absolutely do not feel you were out to get anyone, or slipping people cheats, or anything of bad intentions. I just wanted to at least state my concerns.

[Tyr]

Aww man, first game where I don't get fucked over by time differences and this happens? : ( Restart please with exceptionally clarified rules regarding no lynch and not voting to avoid confusion?

p.s. great play shit-stirrer though I have a feeling that if the game continued, you'd kill me. D:

[Super Buu]

I really was trying to avoid any actual anger going through while still conveying the sheer frustration of the issue, as it had the feel of repeatedly going to the teacher to make sure you understood exactly how something worked and getting reassured and then when you finally sit down on the exam, you fail it by a fundamental core flaw in your entire understanding of the exam's subject, despite being uncertain about that exact situation the entire time. I absolutely do not feel you were out to get anyone, or slipping people cheats, or anything of bad intentions. I just wanted to at least state my concerns.

Well for better or worse, now that the mechanics of the shit stirrer are no longer a secret, that won't be a problem next game. I liked that people had to figure out the mechanics, it adds another level to the game, but it can be frustrating when you don't know what's causing things to happen.

I'm at work right now so I'm not flush with time to explain everything, but I will reveal the roster shortly.

[Super Buu]

Meer: I understand your reasons for quitting, even if I think it's lame not to at least try and keep the game going. The remainder of the game WOULD be pretty skewed against you.

However what actually annoys me is that you didn't tell me or Shou that you quit, you just stopped replying to PMs. I understand you were frustrated, but I'd expect you to show basic courtesy towards the host, the same I and everyone else gave you when you were running the game. Instead, after waiting all day for you to get back to me with your kill, I had to IM you on Steam to find out you had no intention of playing anyway.

Bitch move, man. =/

[Super Buu]

Sigfried Hunin - Sheriff
Leo - townie
Dr. Cringle - townie
Shou - Mafia Goon (no special power)
John Doe - Godfather
Whompt - Vigilante
Sophia - Townie
Piper Juunanagou - Defense Attorney
Jarka - Townie
Rem-13 - Townie
Waffuru - Doctor
Jonathan Meer - Mafia Bomber
Kaden - Bodygyard
Celena - Rookie cop
Kami - Shit Stirrer (WAY TO RUIN THE GAME YOU PSYCHIC JERK)
Metal Teemer - Townie
Rafael - Prosecuting Attorney
Ashe - Mafia Agent


Roles explained:

Mafia bomber - Jonathan Meer
Would take someone with them when they died, regardless of how it happened. Mainly to be used as an 'equalizer' of sorts. I'm not too sure I'll use it again.

Rookie cop - Celena
"You are the Rookie Cop. Once per night, you may PM me the name of one person you wish to investigate, and I will tell you whether or not they have any ‘special’ role. If they do, you have the option of investigating that person again the following night to find out exactly what their special role is."
This one seems a bit just like a weaker sheriff at first, and it is that. But it's also more interesting than the sheriff IMO, because a hasty rookie cop might not bother with the second investigation and just lynch, which could end in killing a doctor or somesuch.

Bodyguard - Kaden
A townie 'equalizer'. Not a huge advantage to the town, since he dies if he protects someone successfully. but it can be used to buy the doctor or sheriff another day. Kaden was protecting you daily, Sig. <3

Defense Attorney and Prosecuting Attorney - Piper and Rafael
These roles were actually largely traps, since their powers didn't do a great deal and the risk was high to use them. They could remove or add a vote to lynch, respectively, but required the user to announce themselves publicly. My original vision for these was as 'public' roles which everyone knew from the start, to add an entirely different flavour with both downsides and upsides. If that was the case (or when they revealed themselves) I was going to clarify that there was no reason they couldn't be mafia - I actually rolled these 2 separately to allow for that. Late game though, I could see them making the difference between winning and losing. Unfortunately they didn't get to do anything. =(

Shit Stirrer - Kami
Ah yes, the Shit Stirrer. He could force a lynch vote on a player of his choice, if nobody was lynched that day. Yes. That's it. That's what caused so much drama. Originally I was going to call him the crazy preacher and he would be a public role like the attorneys, but I decided, like the attorneys, it'd be a little unfair to whoever got it because they'd probably be murdered very quickly and would have less choice about how to play the game. This way they could choose to reveal if they wanted, or stay silent. There were a lot of risks with this role, but apparently Kami is also drinking whatever psychic juice Whompt was drinking as doctor in the first game.

Vigilante - Whompt
A townie who could kill at night. Actually a much bigger wildcard than the Shit Stirrer, and it's one of the most common special roles in mafia, besides Doctor and Sheriff. But in this game it didn't get to do anything! Since Whompt was playing smart. This really was a bizarre game.

[Blue]

Question: If the bodygaurd protected someone, and the Doc protected the bodygaurd, if the original person was targetted for death would no death occur?

[Rafael]

I had the obligatory Phoenix Wright picture waiting and everything D;

[Super Buu]

Question: If the bodygaurd protected someone, and the Doc protected the bodygaurd, if the original person was targetted for death would no death occur?

This was a tricky one, so I decided to deal with it case-by-case. Since it was unlikely to happen, I didn't want to weaken the bodyguard just because of 1 loophole. But at the same time, it could break the game later on. I had several possible ways to resolve it, but I'll keep those secret in case I use the bodyguard again.

[Piper Juunanagou]

I had the obligatory Phoenix Wright picture waiting and everything D;

Psh, Phoenix Wright is a defense attorney. And that was me, sumbish, so if anyone be objecting, it would have been this cat.

And then everything exploded, and now I don't get to use that picture. ;-;

[Vad]

I have better things to do with my time than prance around in a lost game with my team getting sniped without explanation, with ridiculous accuracy. It's the same reason I immediately quit if I hang a queen in a chess game. It's the same reason why I vote to surrender in LoL if we lose both our inhibitors and two teammates are still level 2.

1/17 x 1/16 = pretty-fucking-unlikely, and add to that my almost guaranteed death in day three, it isn't worth it.

EDITED BY ASHE - Unnecessary.

EDITED BY JON - lolol

That is a terrible way to play games and will ultimately get you shunned, because you don't have the balls to lose or live with a fuck up. What happened to going down fighting?