Goku vs Superman

[Nori]

What episode did Goku blow up a planet with his mind in? Cuz, as far as I knew, Goku was all about not destroying planets. But if you say he did, he must have.

I said he *could*, not that he did.

If Goku is capable (let's just take the first time he could blow up a planet, supposedly).

If Goku is able to counter Vegeta's beam, that is capable of blowing up a planet, at 18,000 power..

And you multiply that by like.. what..? A good.. Million? If not more?

He could destroy it with *no* effort. It's no issue. As for Superman juggling planets, I wouldn't be suprised if Goku could honestly do the same thing. XD.

There's already been a "official" fight in some magazine, or whatever, and SSJ Goku won.

It's not because Superman is weak, but because of the difference in universes. If you can't blow up a planet in DBZ, your weak.

[Krillin]

If Goku never did, nor expressed any amount of power in which it would inevitably lead to the conclusion that he could, then it is assumed that he can't. This is simple logic.

Goku never blew up a planet with his mind.

Goku never exhibited the capacity to blow up a planet with his mind.

Goku can't blow up a planet with his mind.

And I knew someone would bring up the idea that "It's on Gaia so it must be false!", which is quite possibly the dumbest conclusion I've ever heard. Gaia Online is lame, but there are intelligent users who browse there (though I've yet to figure out why). One of them put together a fantastic analysis of actual fact with sources to back him up. So far, that trumps absolutely everything I've seen any of you push.

[Whompt]

If you read that thread on gaia, you'd realise that Superman is in fact, alot stronger than Goku. From evidence provided in the series, not just speculation on, "Well if he was this powerful at that time, then he's obviously alot stronger now."

[Kami]

Props on the turning back time deal.

[Nori]

What evidence is there that he could? Because he's really buff and fast? Last I checked, the strongest men in the world couldn't do lift shit with their brains.

Because he can communicate telepathically and lift objects with his mind? OH WTF. I spoiled DBZ.

[Nori]

If Goku never did, nor expressed any amount of power in which it would inevitably lead to the conclusion that he could, then it is assumed that he can't. This is simple logic.

Goku never blew up a planet with his mind.

Goku never exhibited the capacity to blow up a planet with his mind.

Goku can't blow up a planet with his mind.

And I knew someone would bring up the idea that "It's on Gaia so it must be false!", which is quite possibly the dumbest conclusion I've ever heard. Gaia Online is lame, but there are intelligent users who browse there (though I've yet to figure out why). One of them put together a fantastic analysis of actual fact with sources to back him up. So far, that trumps absolutely everything I've seen any of you push.

Then I'm going to go through, and go against all the points.

[Whompt]

I don't recall an instance of him lifting something with his mind. Piccolo has, but as far as I know, Goku has only lifted himself using his body's energy. Telepathy does not equal the power to destroy planets with but a thought.

[Nori]

"People always call in fusion, or SSJ4 Goku at his strongest, so why not use Superman at his strongest? Superman Prime has been living in the SUN for 15,000 years, and he has the Green Lantern ring, the Universe's Most Powerful weapon. By that time, Supes is no longer hurt by Kryptonite, he has absorbed so much solar energy that he cannot be hurt by anything other than a psychic attack (psychic attacks only give him headaches), and the Green Lantern ring is limited only by willpower in what it can do. "


Personally, that's why I don't read the comics. That's by far one of the lamest things, ever. XD. But, my counter to this.. uh..

The Green Latern Ring has been beaten before, and really, it's useless against Goku. Goku can move faster then light in the Saiyan Saga, and since the green laterns ring is made of energy, it'd be simple for the Saiyan to dodge without even going SSJ. As for the upsurge in power, that's quite hard to get around.

However. You simply, I don't believe, have anyone that can compete with Goku's raw SSJ 4 strength in DBZ. I mean, in the DBZ Movie with Broly, they were creating *massive* crators with their fists, like, viewable from space. That was Super Saiyan Goku, presumably, before Cell came about. SSJ 4 Goku blows that out of the water.

The Characters he fought against couldn't fight him physically. However, the people of the Dragonball universe are in a completely different league.


"Goku can blow up a planet? Superman once juggled planets. "

This is the one I like, the most. XD. In truth, we don't know exactly what Goku could do with a planet. Because he well.. wouldn't do any damage to it, unless it couldn't be averted. However. Master Roshi is able to destroy a planet, with a power in the hundreds. SSJ 4 Goku is well into the billions. I mean, let's just use a Dragonball Z reference.

Kid Buu destroys Earth with no effort. He just raises his hand, summons a ball of energy, and throws it down. It causes no strain on his body, no effort, no.. well.. anything. SSJ 3 goku is stronger then Kid Buu. He just lacks the endurance of the Majin.

So. SSJ 4 Goku is far stronger then SSJ 3 Kid Buu, of course. That's apparent by the fact that Goku could barely fight Bebi in that form, and with SSJ 4, he was winning (for a awhile, until Bebi transformed). So, if Kid Buu, who at this time was far weaker (Uub, the reincarnation of Kid Buu being defeated by Bebi with no effort, at all), was able to destroy planets with flicks of his finger, couldn't Goku, if he actually wanted, to the same thing? If not better.



"Goku has instant transmission? The Flash can run over 8 times the speed of light, and Superman barely lost to him in a footrace. That means that Superman can move at around 7.7 times the speed of light. Goku's instant transmission is only 99% speed of light."


See, this is partially where I'll agree with the inconsistities (Sp?). Raditz in the Saiyan Saga, could move faster then light. That's how you dodge energy beams and waves, because, according to Piccolo, they move as fast as the speed of light. Now, Goku was *far* faster then Raditz in the Frieza Saga, as apparent by the fact that people who could see Vegeta's movements in the Saiyan, and early Frieza Saga (Vegeta, as we know, is far faster and stronger then Raditz, even in the Saiyan Saga), couldn't even see Goku move. Even Vegeta couldn't see him move. Yet, Goku was moving so fast he didn't even appear to move, a attribute that the Flash himself has used.

Goku is faster the the speed of light, without Super Saiyan. When in Super Saiyan, his speed picks up.

All the forms are *much* faster, then the last. As apparent in all the fights.


"Superman once nearly outflew the barrier of creation. "


So? Goku is capable of harnissing the energy of the entire universe, and if he desires, absorb it into himself. Which, increases his power even *more* dramatically. Indeed, with a ball of energy just from the people of earth, he was able to defeat a Android who was far stronger then his Super Saiyan self, with one punch.



"He is so fast, and his senses are so sharp, that while talking to Lois Lane, he heard aliens in another galaxy needing help, went there, helped them, and came back, and Lois didnt even notice he had left."


A major inconsistincy in the Superman universe. If you say, flew to another galaxy, and helped them, they wouldn't even notice/no you did it/anything, before you'd have to return. Yeah.. that's hard to understand.


"His voice alone can shatter mountains."


Goku powering up to Super Saiyan 3 threatened to blow up the world. Buildings across the planets shattered, and so on.


"His heat vision can repel Darkseid's Omega Effect, which can destroy planets."

Uh....Yeah..


"Superman closed a black hole with his bare hands."


Yeah.. see.. now your losing me. The problem is, Dragonball Z hasn't been around 60 years to exploit fanboyism. =/


"In February 1954, Superman withstands the explosion of a hydrogen bomb, (Superman #87)"


Goku survives, no, repels, energy bombs capable of destroying entire planets, not regions of planets.



"By 1957, Superman is able to hurl an uninhabited Planet through space (Superman #110) Both Pre-Crisis Superman and Superboy have been known to move planets without external assistance. For reference, consider the earth an average sized planet. The earth weighs in at 5.972 sextillion (5,972,000,000,000,000,000,000) metric tons. "


Goku is able to push back a planet with his Kamemehameha move, in the Lord Slug movie. That is, until it explodes. But uh.. Goku's weak at that time, nowehere near his full power. >_>.

[Ruhiel]

Yeah, sorry Krillin, I can't agree with the argument of the guy from Gaia Online. He definitely compiled his facts and everything, and it was very logical. But see, that's the problem. It was logical. You simply can't make any sort of logical argument in this situation. You've got an illogical fight between two very illogical superheroes, using logic to justify the two rarely makes much sense. There's always going to be tons of "shoulda, woulda, coulda" stuff from both sides. Either one of them could win, given certain situations.

[Nori]

The problem is in the differences of the universe. Goku, in Dragonball, was capable of moving small mountains. I mean.. it's just the difference.

[Whompt]

Well then, illogically Superman could push the universe back into one singularity using sheer willpower alone. And he could attain tiers of power equal to or greater than any super saiyan level. But then the argument would be moot in general. If you're going to argue that one being is stronger than the other, then you have to use logic, despite how illogical the two beings are. Otherwise it'll just degenerate into a cops and robbers situation of, "I shot you!" "No you didn't!"

[Nori]

Well, if you want to use DBZ logic, you could be like.

"Well Goku would somehow aquire a new transformation, Super Saiyan five, and then use the Spirit Bomb, but since he couldn't hurt Superman with it, he'd absorb it, then he'd use all that power, of the entire universe, to beat Super Man."

That's Dragonball Z, Logical, Logic. XD.

[Whompt]

That's the funny thing. Goku, at SSJ4, couldn't beat Omega Shenron, or even hurt him. But without a powerup, he easily destroyed him with a spirit bomb. The same spirit bomb that barely took out Kid Buu. DBZ Logic is a game of cops and robbers.

[Krillin]

Personally, that's why I don't read the comics. That's by far one of the lamest things, ever. XD. But, my counter to this.. uh..

Great argument Akane. WTF SUPES STRONGER THAN GOKU = LAMEZOR I WIN

The Green Latern Ring has been beaten before, and really, it's useless against Goku. Goku can move faster then light in the Saiyan Saga, and since the green laterns ring is made of energy, it'd be simple for the Saiyan to dodge without even going SSJ. As for the upsurge in power, that's quite hard to get around.

One: Goku couldn't go faster than the speed of light in the Saiyan Saga, and I'm damn near sure he couldn't during the Buu Saga either (I know nothing of GT). If you can contradict me on this point, I'd love to see some source, but otherwise, I'm going to have to dismiss this.

The idea that Goku can dodge energy easily is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. He gets hit by ki blasts during all sagas. Ki is energy.

"Goku can blow up a planet? Superman once juggled planets. "

This is the one I like, the most. XD. In truth, we don't know exactly what Goku could do with a planet. Because he well.. wouldn't do any damage to it, unless it couldn't be averted. However. Master Roshi is able to destroy a planet, with a power in the hundreds. SSJ 4 Goku is well into the billions. I mean, let's just use a Dragonball Z reference.

Again, I'd like to see the source where Master Roshi could destroy a planet. I remember nothing of this sort ever.

So. SSJ 4 Goku is far stronger then SSJ 3 Kid Buu, of course. That's apparent by the fact that Goku could barely fight Bebi in that form, and with SSJ 4, he was winning (for a awhile, until Bebi transformed). So, if Kid Buu, who at this time was far weaker (Uub, the reincarnation of Kid Buu being defeated by Bebi with no effort, at all), was able to destroy planets with flicks of his finger, couldn't Goku, if he actually wanted, to the same thing? If not better.

So they both can easily destroy planets. Big deal. I'll bet they can both easily lift a fifty-pound weight as well, but that says nothing for who is more powerful.

"Goku has instant transmission? The Flash can run over 8 times the speed of light, and Superman barely lost to him in a footrace. That means that Superman can move at around 7.7 times the speed of light. Goku's instant transmission is only 99% speed of light."

See, this is partially where I'll agree with the inconsistities (Sp?). Raditz in the Saiyan Saga, could move faster then light. That's how you dodge energy beams and waves, because, according to Piccolo, they move as fast as the speed of light. Now, Goku was *far* faster then Raditz in the Frieza Saga, as apparent by the fact that people who could see Vegeta's movements in the Saiyan, and early Frieza Saga (Vegeta, as we know, is far faster and stronger then Raditz, even in the Saiyan Saga), couldn't even see Goku move. Even Vegeta couldn't see him move. Yet, Goku was moving so fast he didn't even appear to move, a attribute that the Flash himself has used.

Source on Piccolo stating they move faster than light? If they do, this is a GRAVE inconsistency to the entire DBZ world and physics in general. While I'm not exactly surprised that DBZ breaks the laws of physics, this is quite blatant.

Again, just because Goku and the Flash can both do the same thing does not mean they are equal in power/speed/whatever. Same logical fallacy as your first point.

"Superman once nearly outflew the barrier of creation. "


So? Goku is capable of harnissing the energy of the entire universe, and if he desires, absorb it into himself. Which, increases his power even *more* dramatically. Indeed, with a ball of energy just from the people of earth, he was able to defeat a Android who was far stronger then his Super Saiyan self, with one punch.

Yeah, except that takes way too damn long. Before Goku can even mutter the words, Supes would punch his face into oblivion.

A major inconsistincy in the Superman universe. If you say, flew to another galaxy, and helped them, they wouldn't even notice/no you did it/anything, before you'd have to return. Yeah.. that's hard to understand.

I don't understand how this is an inconsistency. At all.

Goku powering up to Super Saiyan 3 threatened to blow up the world. Buildings across the planets shattered, and so on.

That's hardly his voice. 'Course, you can just argue that SSJ3 Gotenks could blow a dimensional hole and such, but whatever.

Uh....Yeah..

Another dazzling display of intelligence. If I didn't know better, I'd wonder if you were Marilyn vos Savant's grandchild.

Yeah.. see.. now your losing me. The problem is, Dragonball Z hasn't been around 60 years to exploit fanboyism. =/

What the flying fuck is that suppoed to mean?

Goku is able to push back a planet with his Kamemehameha move, in the Lord Slug movie. That is, until it explodes. But uh.. Goku's weak at that time, nowehere near his full power. >_>.

There's a big difference in pushing back a planet using your actual life energy (which can be sapped to the point of death, or near death, as shown by Tien in the Cell saga), and actually HURLING a planet through space. Oh, and, yeah. This is before Superman actually gets pwnag3.

[Nori]

XD. I'm stepping out of this thread. I don't have more important things to listen to a combat between fanboyism. Like, go on a date. XD.

[Whompt]

Actually, Piccolo only mentions that his Special Beam Cannon moves as fast as light. And Raditz could just dodge it by watching where Piccolo was aiming.

[Krillin]

XD. I'm stepping out of this thread. I don't have more important things to listen to a combat between fanboyism. Like, go on a date. XD.

...says the young lady who made the first long-ass post in the argument.

Go enjoy your date, hot stuff. Hopefully he's not looking for someone intelligent.

[Whompt]

Krillin's harsh...

[Belle Hibiki]

So much anger.



Off the top of my head I would say that Goku would win. But see, my whole experience of Superman has really been the first Doomsday arc (the "Death of Superman") where Supes was powerful but not insanely, stupidly so.

He did some pretty powerful shit. Crisscrossing punches from Superman and Doomsday were powerful enough to shatter the glass of the office buildings they were dueling in front of. I've always thought of that Superman as a sort of 'standard', but like I said, I don't have a lot of experience.

Saiyan Saga Goku isn't that strong, imo. He rams Vegeta into a small stone plateau and crunches him partially into it, but he never does anything like *that*. Frieza saga Goku, though... even without SSJ, I think he could go toe-to-toe with that Superman and win.

If we're asking who would win at their best, most ultimate power, however, that's pretty obviously Superman. Akane brings up a good point that Superman has had many decades to exist with hundreds of different writers, visions, and concepts of his power's limits. Consequently, in some series Superman has near God-like power.

One of the reasons Crisis happened was because Superman was getting so powerful that he was practically becoming impossible to write for. Sans kryptonite, he would realistically run roughshod over anyone. So they reset him. Lazy writing and lack of ideas, however, has prompted a continual pumping up of Superman's power ever since the reset. Eventually they'll have to reboot him again. *shrugs*

[Nappa]

Krillin. You can't base her intelligence on her performance in a debate that partains to fictional characters whose powers are limited only to what their writer's think up.

With that said: You guys disgust me. Why would you waste your time with something that has been covered as many times as this situation has?